kate_nepveu: on going to law school

Kate (

kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2011-01-09 10:24 am UTC

Entry tags:

on going to law school

My standard response to people who aren't sure if they want to go to law school is, "Don't." In the past, I've gone on to say, "Law school sucks enough that unless you're positive you want to practice law [*], you shouldn't spend three years of your life at it."

This NYT article reminds me that my answer also must include, "and the job market is so bad that it is an amazingly risky gamble."

So, for the record.

[*] Two notes about "practice law":

First, if you're one of the minuscule number of people who can go straight into teaching law, you don't need to be asking me for advice.

Second and far more importantly, as the article says:

This gets to what might be the ultimate ugly truth about law school: plenty of those who borrow, study and glad-hand their way into the gated community of Big Law are miserable soon after they move in.

If you don't know what kind of law you want to practice and what it'll be like, it behooves you to find out.

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	no subject cheshyre 2011-01-09 04:13 pm UTC (link)
	Back in high school, I was a huge fan of the Paper Chase tv series. It also convinced me that I didn't want to attend law school. At the time, I didn't realize that their portrayal of Harvard Law School might not be representative of general law school experience. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-09 05:53 pm UTC (link)
	Heh. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be like that to still suck--Yale is much more into the warm-and-fuzzy self-image, and still, not something I would've done just for the fun of it. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject karnythia 2011-01-09 04:15 pm UTC (link)
	I finally decided against law school after talking to a bunch of attorneys in different field. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-09 05:58 pm UTC (link)
	I was thinking of you when I was writing this--not "gee, I hope I can save her from herself," because that would be stupid, but "hmm, I'm not sure I know whether she ever made final arrangements, I wonder what's up?" Thanks for the update. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject (Anonymous) 2011-01-09 04:56 pm UTC (link)
	I knew a guy who went directly from physics grad school into law school upon completing his Ph. D. The thought made me feel a little ill. Matt McIrvin (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-09 05:54 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. That's a lot of time in school. And very different experiences, too--I should think the whiplash would be pretty profound, going in that direction. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject (Anonymous) 2011-01-09 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	At the time I heard the Harvard Law experience described as almost high-school-like in some ways. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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(Anonymous)
2011-01-09 08:24 pm UTC (link)

...Physics, at the time, also had an amazingly bad job market. But the big difference is that you usually don't accumulate any more debt going to physics grad school (though you don't pay it off very effectively either if you've already got some).

And physics degrees are pretty good for getting all sorts of technical jobs, though they may not be the best thing to have for any given one.

Matt

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	no subject cakmpls.livejournal.com 2011-01-09 05:01 pm UTC (link)
	The only lawyers people ever hear about are the ones who make big money, it seems. They don't hear about the many, many more who barely make a meager living, or leave law because they can't make even that. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-09 05:59 pm UTC (link)
	And as far as fictional representations . . . hmm, I wonder how _Law & Order_ is on this front? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

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sarcastro
2011-01-09 06:24 pm UTC (link)

well...

L&O only really seems to ever show the actual DA, and then a top homicide prosecutor and his almost always female second perpetual chair. I view the show through the prism of my own office which is close, but not that close to the Manhattan DA's Office when it comes to salary packages.

1) The Ben Stone/Jack McCoy/New Declan Guy probably make (and have been making for years) in excess of $110k, and likely went to law school in the mid eighties/early nineties (at this point), thus their loan debt is probably a manageable amount - and are able to live a swell life in Manhattan... I reckon those guys aren't living super large, but they probably can make swing their loans and rent and enough here and there for whatever.

2) The almost always female perpetual second chairs (the Abby Carmichael/Claire Kincaids), they *might* make $90+ but they would have gone to law school later and might be carrying $100k in debt. On the other hand, I know from several colleagues over there that unless you are a senator's kid or something, NYDA only takes Ivy students, and a good many of those schools have loan forgiveness for those in public service making under a salary threshold (NYU Law, for example - I imagine Yale/Harvard et al have corresponding programs).

Yet, they don't ever show the juniors grousing about high NYC living expenses on their public sector salary and they all seem to have really nice suits and shoes... but it is television and L7O shows such a distorted view of the criminal law sector anyway.

There was a show ("120 Centre Street") that focused on newly minted ADAs, who had eleventy roommates if living in Manhattan or tucked away in their parents homes in da Outta Boroughs, and counted out pennies to buy their morning bagels, but that didn't last long.

I will say that the starting salaries in my office *sound* okay ($58k) but our compensation hasn't moved an inch in like 5 years (exempting slivers of percentage raises handed down from City Hall) but that $58k for a new hire really won't help them make any serious inroads into their debt while being to feed, clothe and house themselves.

I only started really doing damage to my loan principal in the last three years and I was able to throw money at my loans because I was fortunate to live with my parents in law school (so no housing costs) and for my first couple of years in the KCDA. And my salary is more than a skotch better than $58k.

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	no subject sarcastro 2011-01-09 06:26 pm UTC (link)
	- wow, that has a lot of typos. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject sarcastro 2011-01-09 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	also, correction - the starting salary is $50k. In other boroughs it can be as high as $62k. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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kate_nepveu
2011-01-10 03:09 am UTC (link)

unless you are a senator's kid or something, NYDA only takes Ivy students

That surprised me briefly, but then I remembered the prestige factor. So, yeah.

When I started at the AG's office in 2002, my starting salary was somewhere around $43K (they offered me the job somewhere around $36?K, so it was a nice surprise. Eliot Spitzer, whatever else you might say, was genuinely dedicated to increasing the professionalism of the AG's office.). Most people would start slightly higher, as normally we have a two-years-out rule, and also we have some allowance for cost of living downstate--but I have no idea how much, and that still won't get you far.

Yale's loan forgiveness program: http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/COAP.htm

Between Chad's books and our salaries, we haven't bothered to apply for a few years now, but we did benefit from it early, and it was and is really comforting to know that it's there.

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	no subject scifantasy 2011-01-09 05:02 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-09 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	Last year for you, or have I misremembered? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject scifantasy 2011-01-09 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	No, you're right--one more semester (plus the bar, of course) to go. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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rachelmanija
2011-01-09 06:30 pm UTC (link)

I once met an actress at a summer Shakespeare festival who had gone all the way through law school and taken the bar exam. Halfway through the first day, the guy sitting next to her ~~got hit by a shell~~ had a nervous breakdown, threw all his papers in the air, and ran out screaming, "I can't take it any more!"

At that moment, she realized that she did not actually want to be a lawyer.

She finished the bar - passed it! - and immediately began pursuing acting. She seemed happy with her decision, but I hate to think of how much debt she must have been in.

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sarcastro
2011-01-09 06:35 pm UTC (link)

when I took the bar exam in the cavernous basement of the Jacob Javits center, we were seated at fairly large tables, two test-takers per table. The young woman sitting next to me started to weep uncontrollably in the morning session of the first day, and was taken out by the proctors after lunch because she was openly and loudly sobbing. She didn't return on day two.

There was also the urban legend of the woman who had a miscarriage in the ladies' room during the bar exam.... it seems to be a perennial urban legend or else it happens at least once per test.

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	no subject rachelmanija 2011-01-09 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	It is never not the right time to mention the "Snake Fight" portion of your thesis defense. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:11 am UTC (link)
	Hah! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject http://www.google.com/profiles/mythago 2011-01-09 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	The woman next to me had her laptop freeze before the exam and went into a nervous breakdown. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:12 am UTC (link)
	What, you got to use laptops?! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject fitzcamel 2011-01-11 06:36 pm UTC (link)
	We do now. Picture the soft clacking of hundreds of keyboards... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:11 am UTC (link)
	The young woman sitting next to me started to weep uncontrollably in the morning session of the first day Oh, ouch. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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(Anonymous)
2011-01-10 05:01 pm UTC (link)

The woman sitting next to me Day 1 of my Registered Nurse exam was heavily pregnant and arrayed several bottles of antacid in front of her before starting the test. About half-way through the day, she began placing her hand on her abdomen, shifting in her seat, and sighing loudly. I wondered if she were a plant to test us in labor and delivery. She didn't appear Day 2 so I'm assuming she was "real" and subsequently delivered.

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	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:10 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's a really rough realization. I know someone who had it during law school, and I _think_ didn't even bother taking the bar. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject marydell 2011-01-09 06:49 pm UTC (link)
	Whenever my dad, who teaches law, has to go to court for one of his rare pro bono side gig things, he comes home saying "gosh I'm glad I don't do that for a living!" The various lawyers in my family tend to see law school as not so bad, because they compare it to the agony of studying for the bar. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:13 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, but at least studying for the bar is _short_. And it's all part of the same thing, requirements to practice. (And another thing they don't tell you: how different law looks when you're practicing and not studying.) (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject marydell 2011-01-10 04:35 am UTC (link)
	It's short if you pass it on the first try :) --my aunt passed it on her fourth. She actually had the interesting (to a layperson) sort of lawyer job--public defender for juveniles and sometimes guardian ad litem. But the other family lawyers are all on the civil side of things and they gnash their teeth over TV depictions of lawyers. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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daedala
2011-01-09 08:25 pm UTC (link)

I don't know about other law schools, but one of the local ones (Hamline) has a very good program in Alternative Dispute Resolution. I took the certificate as part of my master's. It would be a good way for someone to learn a lot about law school, I think: the classes were basically taught as a counterpoint to law, have a lot of law students and lawyers getting their continuing education credits, and are really really useful even if you don't do it professionally. And because they're often used for CLEs, non-law-students can actually get into them.

I get told a lot that I would do very well in law school. I found from the ADR courses that a) I would and b) I'd hate it.

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	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:13 am UTC (link)
	Interesting, thanks. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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daedala
2011-01-10 03:20 am UTC (link)

The ADR programs are kind of like anti-law -- all cooperative and stuff -- and aside from the Arbitration class (required for the cert, and pretty useless for anyone who's not a lawyer), they're pretty useful whatever career you go into. And the way all the 2Ls and 3Ls talked...I inferred a lot about how law school worked, most of it probably even reasonably close.

And, um, I pretty much credit the ADR program for being able to nearly double my salary. I was really underpaid, and the negotiation and the exposure to the environment helped a lot with being able to insist on getting something closer to what I was worth. So it may be a good thing for other women who have trouble understanding that they deserve a higher salary than they're getting, and then obtaining that salary.

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	no subject ithiliana 2011-01-09 08:51 pm UTC (link)
	I'd actually expand this axiom to graduate/post-bac professional programs in general! (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

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(Anonymous)
2011-01-09 09:08 pm UTC (link)

There is a big practical divide between the ones you typically finance through loans, and the arts-and-sciences programs where students commonly get assistantships with a tuition waiver and a modest stipend. You're much less screwed at the end in the latter case. Traditionally the downside is that these programs have poorer professional prospects, but, as the attached article suggests, this may not always be true.

That said, it's true that neither option is really good for the uncommitted. A lot of kids end up going to grad school because after college it feels like the easiest and most familiar option, which is probably not a good reason.

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ithiliana
2011-01-09 09:56 pm UTC (link)

The tuition waivers and assistantships and stipends are not as common as one would wish--we didn't have them at the university where I teach until very recently, and only for a few people, and we have very limited assistantships.

With the cuts in government support, a whole lot of arts and sciences graduate students are financing through loans.

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	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:14 am UTC (link)
	Hard sciences too? Chad's standard advice for physics is if that the school is going to make you pay for it, you shouldn't go. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject ithiliana 2011-01-10 06:20 am UTC (link)
	None of the hard science departments here have doctorates--only a few have MS programs. Very small university, in rural area. I don't know much about hard sciences though I have recently heard my young half-brother is losing his funding (physics) because of all the cuts in California. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject silmaril 2011-01-11 09:27 pm UTC (link)
	I can echo that for engineering. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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kodi
2011-01-09 11:12 pm UTC (link)

I'd also add that some types of law are extremely difficult to get into, especially if you're not going to be putting a first-tier law school on your resume. Tax and IP law, in particular, are generally looking for great grades at a good school and at least one Masters or LLM, or several years of contract work that you drummed up on your own.

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	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:15 am UTC (link)
	Thanks--I'm more on the generalist end, so I don't have experience with that. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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rosefox
2011-01-09 11:53 pm UTC (link)

This is very very wise advice.

My brother just finished his first semester of law school and is loving it. He's having a ton of fun. We are all very relieved.

He also spent several years as a paralegal working for the National Association of Attorneys General, and has been interested in law since he was 13--half his life, now--so he was very clear on this being the right course of action for him. He knows about the job market and he's doing it anyway because it's what he wants to be doing. And we're still relieved, because even for people who are that certain and have spent that long preparing, law school can be awful.

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	no subject kate_nepveu 2011-01-10 03:16 am UTC (link)
	NAAG! Unfortunate acronym, useful organization. Good for him. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject rosefox 2011-01-10 05:07 am UTC (link)
	The only downside of that job is that he flinches every time he hears the word "tobacco". (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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tool_of_satan.livejournal.com
2011-01-10 09:45 pm UTC (link)

Back when I was finishing up college I got as far as taking the LSAT and going to a law school fair. But I realized that I wasn't really committed to the idea, and that possibly the last thing the world needed was yet another middle-aged lawyer who didn't like his job much and was prone to midlife crises because of this. So I didn't apply.

I haven't had much cause to regret this decision, but reinforcement always helps. So thanks. :)

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