kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)Kate ([personal profile] kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2012-06-09 09:57 am UTC
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Entry tags:movies, movies: avengers 'verse

Last Sunday afternoon our household temporarily contained two adults and one kid, so naturally I bolted to see The Avengers on the big screen. (Chad saw it opening day.)

I didn't want to miss all the happenings around the release date, so I had already familiarized myself with the movie; as a result, some of you may have seen me discuss parts of this already, though I am trying not to repeat myself too much.

And now, SPOILERS.

Some big-picture things first.

  • I have the vague impression that it is not universally accepted that Loki (1) was acting under some duress and (2) deliberately let himself be captured so he could fuck around with the eventually-Avengers' heads? If so, I am surprised, as I thought it was clear.
  • That said, my failure to give a damn about Loki (or Thor) continues. (I found Thor the movie incredibly boring.) I don't even Things To Say about the way adoption narratives are being used in Thor and this movie, okay, that's how little I care.

    (Well, except that "He's adopted" was horribly out of character and offensive for a cheap laugh.)

  • I can see how people would have problems with the early pacing of the movie, but it didn't bother me at all. This probably means that the tack Whedon originally took, using Steve as a POV character and having a lot more about his adjustment, was properly jettisoned, but if I don't get the Peggy-Steve reunion scene that Whedon wrote in some form or another I will be VERY UPSET.

Which slides us into character stuff:

  • But I don't think that the tiny bits of background and development we do get are enough to do Steve justice, which makes me sad because he is my favorite.
  • Captain America 2 should be the Winter Soldier with lots and lots of Natasha, if we are not actually getting a Black Widow movie, please please please?
  • As far as intros go, I am hoping that coffeeandink will write more on the topic, but I think it's significant that the assembling part of the movie starts with Natasha and then Bruce, since the movie does the most character development with the two of them. (They are, I'm sure you'll all be shocked to hear, my second favorites. (It's a tie.))
  • And Natasha kicking things off signals how much she will be a central mover of the plot.
  • Natasha was awesome; Hill was awesome and probably got as much to do as she could under the circumstances but I still wanted to see more of her; Pepper looked happy! but I would have liked to see her working the phones to find War Machine or get disaster relief organized or whatnot while keeping an eye on the news and then being riveted by Tony's suicide run; really, we couldn't have any Jane at all? don't tell me the budget wouldn't stretch to include Natalie Portman; SHIELD seemed very white except for Fury; the use of Calcutta sucked.

Vaguely plot-ish:

  • Cognitive reset via head trauma is stupid, but it's not the kind of movie that would have it only seem to work. Or, probably, to have Loki secretly half-assing it, acting under duress not withstanding.
  • The use of Coulson's death is annoying. The only one it would actually motivate is Tony, and shouldn't he be past that now? Manpain, I am tired of you.
  • Yay big easy-to-follow action setpieces with nice character moments.

Minor details:

  • At the end: I imagine Natasha tells Clint something about acid dripping into eyes or lips being sewn together, yes? She is the one to give Bruce his bag so he can go wherever (with Tony to be science buddies, I sincerely hope, because adorable). Steve goes up to Tony to shake his hand.
  • Pepper is wearing a big ugly ring, but throughout the whole movie, and on her right hand not her left.
  • Two ravens flew by when Thor and Loki were Shakespearing at each other.
  • Both Maria and Natasha are wearing wedges as discussed here regarding Natasha, but I only noticed because I was looking, and the scene where I spotted them on Natasha, she was walking with Steve on the helicarrier, who's about 8" taller than her if the Internet can be believed.
  • It goes by really fast, but those blueprints Tony unrolls at the end and looks at are living quarters for each Avenger. (So, fandom, you don't need to write "Tony being bemused at everyone living in the Tower" fic. He planned on it.)

Anyway: yay team, yay 3/6 of the team individually, yay action. I had fun.

Movie trailers: Prometheus, so not my kind of thing. Dark Knight Rises, enh, I confess to imprinting on Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman as a kid and my opinion of the last movie has dropped with time, but we'll see. The Spidey reboot, fails to get around the problem of Tobey Maguire having been perfect for the role, even though the series itself fell apart around him. Brave, too scary for SteelyKid alas but I might go see it. Frankenweenie, Burton stop-motion story of a boy and his resurrected dog, no opinion.



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Re: Jane


[personal profile] cheshyre
2012-06-09 02:28 pm UTC (link)
we couldn't have any Jane at all? don't tell me the budget wouldn't stretch to include Natalie Portman

As I understand, Whedon didn't want any of the solo-movie SO's at all. Keeping the heroes' existing support network around would be detrimental to group bonding. However, RDJ insisted that Pepper was necessary to illuminate Tony Stark's character and talked Whedon into it.

One of my biggest disappointments was the film's failure to pass the Bechdel test. Whedon couldn't find some reason for Maria and Natasha to exchange words???

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the_shoshanna: my boy kitty (kitty)

Re: Jane


[personal profile] the_shoshanna
2012-06-09 03:11 pm UTC (link)
During one of the conversations in the lab, a pair of female SHIELD agents wearing grey tanktops walk down the corridor, past the window. Later, when the bomb detonates in the OtherVerse and everyone starts cheering, two female SHIELD agents on the bridge throw themselves into each others' arms. I (possibly with the help of mild faceblindness) immediately decided that these are the same pair of women and that we have LESBIANS ON BOARD.

But that's as close as we come, yeah. Sigh.

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Re: Jane


[personal profile] ejmam
2012-06-09 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Hill yells orders at the room, which includes some women, does that count?

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the_shoshanna: Spock making Vulcan handsign: text "Talk to the hand." (talk to the hand)

Re: Jane


[personal profile] the_shoshanna
2012-06-09 04:00 pm UTC (link)
"That man is playing Galaga, and those women are talking to each other. They thought we wouldn't notice, but we did."

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)

Re: Jane


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:47 am UTC (link)
And Downey was right. And since the team bonding mostly happened in the heat of battle, arguing that the film needed to leave the women offscreen is kinda foolish.

Plus that would have gone a long way toward the structural inequities that Bechdel is most useful for me in highlighting.

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scifantasy: Me. (Me)


[personal profile] scifantasy
2012-06-09 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Loki (1): Perhaps. It's not entirely clear to me whether he was acting under specific duress, or simply had become a bit unhinged after vanishing into the universe at the end of Thor and Thanos was using that. For these purposes it's a moot point, because either way, it's clear he is not in full control of himself.

Loki (2): I didn't think there was any dissent on that. He clearly let himself be captured, he didn't flee when Thor and Iron Man got into a scrap, Barton had already been planning for the assault on the Helicarrier...

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:48 am UTC (link)
(1) The interstellar video conference call, which ended in a pain whammy/threat, suggested specific duress to me.

(2) There's actually a tiny shot of him grinning up on the mountain too.

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scifantasy: Me. (Me)


[personal profile] scifantasy
2012-06-10 02:28 am UTC (link)
(1) Yeah, but that could be read as "we'll hold you to the deals you made, and if you screw us over, you are a dead man," which may still indicate he wasn't under duress when he made the deal in the first place.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 02:30 am UTC (link)
(1) True! Like I said, I was spacing a bit during these scenes as the movie equivalent of tl;dr, but something about the way they were talking about his landing their domain after falling and whatever also gave me that impression. Ultimately it only matters for _Thor 2_ which I can't imagine I'll bother with, anyway.

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rilina: (flower)


[personal profile] rilina
2012-06-09 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Any interest or fondness I have for the characters of Loki
and Thor come from the comics. I especially like the Langridge and Samnee "Thor: The Mighty Avenger." Though I honestly don't remember how that treats the adoption narrative; would have to reread.

I totally heart the Winter Soldier plot, though I rather wish Natasha would get a true movie of her own where manpain is less likely to take over. So, better as the Captain America sequel, perhaps.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:50 am UTC (link)
I'm still debating whether to read the Winter Soldier arc in comics; the older Cap and the sidekick Bucky are weird and hard for me to take, and also I kinda liked seeing _The Hunger Games_ fresh. Maybe I'll keep it in case the movie screws it up.

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rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (books, green)


[personal profile] rosefox
2012-06-09 05:59 pm UTC (link)
What baffles me about "Loki let himself get captured" is that at no point does anyone say "Hang on, isn't this the guy who can teleport?".

I was also appalled by "He's adopted". Surprised I haven't seen more people taking issue with it. It fails on every level.

What interests me about Coulson's death is how meta it is. He knows the role he's playing and he plays it literally to the hilt. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for story."

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:52 am UTC (link)
I thought the meta was a step too impressed with its own cleverness (among the many _Princess Bride_ icons I keep thinking of making and not actually getting around to is the grandfather saying "Yes, you're very smart. Now shut up."), and that flagging it so clearly does the movie no favors (which I would, since I think it's a stupid plot and characterization move). I think I could make an argument that other characters were approaching the same meta line with their predictions about the kind of story they were in (Bruce particularly?), but it was a lot less blatant.

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rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (books, green)


[personal profile] rosefox
2012-06-10 02:01 am UTC (link)
I had to dial down my Self-Impressed-O-Meter quite a lot to be able to watch the movie at all, so that bit didn't really stand out to me in that regard!

I'm also not familiar with the Whedon canon, so if that's a very Whedonesque sort of thing to do, it probably jumped out at me a lot more than it did to people who are more familiar with his work.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 02:02 am UTC (link)
Hee. And I've only watched _Firefly_ so I'm not an expert in that regard either.

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[personal profile] mikeda
2012-06-10 11:52 pm UTC (link)
guy who can teleport

Can he, though? I'm pretty sure we've seen Loki project illusions of himself, but I can't recall him actually teleporting on his own.

(One should note that both Cap and Fury openly voice suspicions that Loki's "capture" isn't entirely genuine.)

(As far as the "He's adopted" line is concerned, it felt entirely in character to me in that specific situation. Obviously YMDV.)

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rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (books, green)


[personal profile] rosefox
2012-06-11 12:25 am UTC (link)
Didn't he teleport behind Coulson to kill him?

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[personal profile] mikeda
2012-06-11 11:21 am UTC (link)
Possibly.

I read that scene as Loki using his illusions to make Coulson think he was still standing in front of him when he had already moved.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-11 01:15 am UTC (link)
The scene in Germany was ambiguous to me in that regard. You'd think this would be a thing that _Thor_ would've established but I was really unclear about the extent and nature of Loki's powers there too.

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marycontrary: (made straight when you are green)


[personal profile] marycontrary
2012-06-09 07:37 pm UTC (link)
"He's adopted" was the worst line of a good movie. I bet Joss flinches when he sees it now; it gets a laugh, but Thor isn't a guy who'd say that for a laugh.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:53 am UTC (link)
The idiom is wrong, the sentiment is inconsistent, just, no.

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princessofgeeks: (RDA and MS by magnavox)


[personal profile] princessofgeeks
2012-06-09 09:37 pm UTC (link)
I am in a rush but popping in to say that I did get the idea of Loki being under duress.

And I share your meh about Loki and Thor. I find the regular people, even the regular super hero people, more interesting than the gods. But that's just me.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:54 am UTC (link)
It's not their godliness that causes my lack of interest, it's a combination of (1) "Loki isn't _like that_" in my backbrain and (2) finding _Thor_ so boring.

Thor the character seems to be a two-kinds-of-people thing.

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[personal profile] mariness
2012-06-09 09:48 pm UTC (link)
HULK SMASH!!! SMASH SMASH!

I liked those bits :) Everything else required a lot of snark, though I have hopes for a Black Widow/Hawkeye movie. Not very big hopes. Tiny hopes.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:56 am UTC (link)
"I'm always angry" is a killer line. And the Hulk got the two biggest laughs in my theater (punching Thor, "puny god").

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silveraspen: silver trees against a blue sky background (silveraspen: shining against blue sky)


[personal profile] silveraspen
2012-06-09 09:55 pm UTC (link)
I got the duress part, and I still think that Thor asked the most important question in the film: "Who controls the man who would be king?"

He never got an answer, either. (Unless the post-movie scene with Thanos is the answer for the audience - in any case, none of the Avengers know it, and that's going to be ... unfortunate.)

Captain America 2 should be the Winter Soldier with lots and lots of Natasha, if we are not actually getting a Black Widow movie, please please please?

YES PLEASE. I WANT THIS LIKE I WANT OXYGEN.

ETA: Forgot the last thing -- I missed getting that look at the blueprints, so thanks for that note! That's a neat little detail, and the kind of thing I like quite a lot. I will definitely look closer at them when next I see the film.

Last edited 2012-06-09 09:57 pm UTC (to add one more thing)

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:57 am UTC (link)
I think we're supposed to think that the post-credits scene is the answer, though honestly I spaced out a little on all of that because I really didn't care.

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[personal profile] kiro
2012-06-10 12:14 am UTC (link)
Re: cognitive reset, I've seen some speculation that Loki's mind-control only works while the victims are continuously conscious, which is why Clint and Dr. Selvig both look like they haven't slept in days by the time they get knocked out -- maybe if they'd fallen asleep it would have worn off, so Loki didn't let them sleep at all. *shrug* It makes it slightly more plausible.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:58 am UTC (link)
*head-tilt* Well, there's nothing in the movie contradicting it, though I think the supporting evidence is exceedingly thin. Thanks.

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[personal profile] mmcirvin
2012-06-10 01:28 am UTC (link)
1. According to Sam, Scarlett Johansson's Russian pronunciation was distractingly bad.

2. Did Thor return to Midgard just to go for shwarma? Was the shwarma run all part of Loki's plan???

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-10 01:59 am UTC (link)
1. Alas!

2. I think the shwarma was immediately post-battle, what with the outfits and the sweeping up glass and stuff?

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[personal profile] mikeda
2012-06-11 12:00 am UTC (link)
Coulson's death

Out of the Avengers still on the carrier, Stark's arguably the important one to reach. He's the one who conspicuously isn't a "team player". But I think Cap would also be affected by the scenario Fury presented. (And the "blood" on the cards was surely specifically aimed at Cap.)

Last edited 2012-06-11 12:00 am UTC

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-11 01:17 am UTC (link)
Yes, but I refuse to believe one melodramatic death was _necessary_ to get Captain Fucking America to suit up and fight an alien invasion! There is no view of that character as established in the movies in which that makes sense. (I gather he is an asshole in Ultimates, hence my qualification.)

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[personal profile] mikeda
2012-06-11 11:23 am UTC (link)
I don't think it was really necessary for Cap.

I'm fine with the idea that Fury wouldn't have been confident of that. Especially since Cap did seem a little burnt out at the beginning of the movie.

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kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2012-06-11 11:25 am UTC (link)
Point. But that's a distinction (Fury's beliefs v. actuality) that the movie made no attempt to draw.

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