kate_nepveu: Duck in duck form looking out from girl's school uniform, text: "nothing more boring than a perfect heroine" (Princess Tutu (heroine))Kate ([personal profile] kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2013-02-10 10:04 pm UTC
  • Previous Entry
  • Add to Memories
  • Tell someone about this!
  • Next Entry
Entry tags:cons: pippi to ripley: 2013, fanfic

In May, I will be giving a 15-minute talk based on the following abstract, which is not the most elegant thing I ever wrote but which does get the idea across, I hope.

An Introduction to Mary Sue and Her Critical Uses and Abuses

“Mary Sue” was coined in the 1970s by a Star Trek fanfic writer to criticize fanfic characters who were improbably wonderful authorial self-insertions (e.g., she’s the youngest Captain in the history of Starfleet, she has amethyst eyes, and every character is hopelessly in love with her). Since then the term has become common among other groups of science fiction and fantasy fans, who use it to refer to characters outside of fanfic, and has even spread into the mainstream media. Today, people use the term to mean anything from the original adolescent wish-fulfillment character who warps the entire story around her to any character who seems to resemble a female author. This talk gives a brief overview of Mary Sue’s history and multiple meanings, and then explores the ways in which she is a useful concept and the ways in which she is used to suppress women’s writing.

This is a mostly-academic conference, the first instance of which I blogged about two years ago, and so though it talks by default about "papers," I don't think I need to have a formal paper written, just a presentation. Which is good, because reading prewritten remarks in a useful and interesting way is not a skill I have.

I will probably be running drafts by y'all closer to, but if there's anything you think might be a bit of a less-common take on the topic, feel free.



(7 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only)

sartorias: (Fan)


[personal profile] sartorias
2013-02-11 06:12 am UTC (link)
I don't know if my take would be less common, but I do a talk to writers about Mary Sue. While touching on its history (and my personal encounters with it go back to 1968) I come up to now, in which I think it is a shorthand, along with Gary Stu, for the character readers think the author tells you is perfect, worthy of being idol of all eyes, etc, etc, but doesn't actually show it. Scenes that aren't funny, but dialogue tags like "she quipped wittily" or "he said with a glint in his eyes, and everybody in the room roared with laughter" or every character falling in love with her/him on sight, or no one else can think of the obvious solution but Sue or Stu is "brilliant"

This is opposed to bright characters who earn the reader's respect as well as the characters'

(Reply to this)  (Thread



[personal profile] mmcirvin
2013-02-11 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Years ago, the bad-movie fan Ken Begg introduced the phrase "Informed Attribute" to refer to some quality of a character or situation that was told rather than shown (especially if it noticeably contradicted what was shown). This does strike me as an important aspect of Mary Suehood: the positive qualities of a Mary Sue are mostly Informed Attributes.

Or, if the author makes a stab at showing them, it's in an obviously contrived manner, as in the case you mentioned where all the other characters become unfathomably incapable of solving a simple problem.

(Reply to this)  (Thread from start)  (Parent


kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2013-02-11 03:49 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, my personal definition of Mary Sue in a critique sense is "warps the story around her unwarrantedly."

(Reply to this)  (Thread from start)  (Parent)  (Thread


sartorias: (Fan)


[personal profile] sartorias
2013-02-11 03:58 pm UTC (link)
But sometimes they work. I usually end my talk by dividing people into groups to point out books/movies with Sue/Stus that don't work, but heroes who do. Things like Name of the Wind frequently show up on both sides of the question.

(Reply to this)  (Thread from start)  (Parent)  (Thread


kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2013-02-11 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Right, "unwarrantedly" is a judgment call!

(Reply to this)  (Thread from start)  (Parent


ext_909977: (pic#1005292)


[identity profile] canyonwalker.livejournal.com
2013-02-12 04:50 am UTC (link)
I'm curious how often, in your judgement, an improbably wonderful new character is an instance of the author projecting an idolized version of him/herself into the story (ie, a Mary Sue or Gary Stu) versus a simple case of lazy writing. I'm not big into fanfic, but I see this trope frequently. It happens a lot in franchise writing, too, which is part of why I figure it's often laziness rather than adolescent wish fulfillment. Though maybe franchise writers are still well in touch with their inner adolescents?

By laziness I mean that writers must introduce significant new characters to keep the story line fresh, and the easiest way to explain why an elite team (whether it's the X-Men or the Star Trek senior officer crew) quickly accepts an unknown new character is to make that new character ridiculously good at several things simultaneously.

(Reply to this)  (Thread


kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (wood cat)


[personal profile] kate_nepveu
2013-02-12 05:57 pm UTC (link)
I don't know, but part of me thinks that it doesn't really matter what the author's motivations here, what's on the page matters--here we get into the problems of suppressing women's writing in particular--on the other hand, part of me thinks there is a *feel* of a self-insert that is unmistakable--in short, I need more sleep to answer this question. =>

(Reply to this)  (Thread from start)  (Parent



(7 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only)