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kate_nepveu) wrote2025-07-21 07:29 pm
Readercon: The Allure of Orpheus and Eurydice
The Allure of Orpheus and Eurydice
The tragedy of Orpheus and Eurydice — the lover who visits Hades to rescue his love, only to falter at the end — has inspired artists for millennia. We'll look at why the story has resonated for so long, favorite adaptations and whether Orpheus could ever NOT look back.
Constance Fay, Greer Gilman, Kate Nepveu, Tom Doyle (moderator), Sophia Babai
In my introduction, I described this Tumblr poll which was then at the top of my Bluesky account. someone's introduction talked about the story as when unshakeable faith is required and when it can't be maintained. We started by Tom asking Greer whether Orpheus could ever not look back. Greer: tells story of Sir Orfeo, upshot of which is that Orfeo has no conditions placed on his recovery of his wife, Heurodis, and gets everything back. Feels like Shakespeare in Winter's Tale, tired of tragedy (this telling involved Heurodis being replaced by a gray stone, and suddenly I realized that Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell probably is related to this or some related myth in some way) Tom: is this the same story? Sophia: fundamentally not. the condition is key, it's like Lot's wife Constance: (my notes here say, "character or moral? Orpheus' lack [of faith, I think] = character. story not the myth." this is much less illuminating than I would like at this point and this panel was only two days ago, on Saturday morning! apologies) Tom: find core of story incredibly frustrating, it's an unavoidable trap and I hate it. it's not cathartic, why can't I shake sense into Orpheus Tom: asks Sophia about Hadestown. Sophia: gives premise, including that about miners. notes that audience gasps every. time. he turns around. about cycles, perseverance in activism. Tom: asks about adding the miners to the story. me: I did not listen to Hadestown all the way through before I went to see it. two things really surprised me: first, that Eurydice chose to go to Hadestown because she and Orpheus were starving and he was too wrapped up in composing to help. Second, when Orpheus discovers this, he despairs and asks "If It's True" ... and the workers, who to this point had been the chorus, respond and ask, why can't we stand with him? And then it becomes about Orpheus, Eurydice, and the workers: Eurydice is going to follow Orpheus, and they are going to follow Eurydice. Sophia: the gods are having very normal marital problems, but because of the power they have, it's destroying the world, and the workers are caught in it. so apt. Greer: interesting that hell is pervading the upper world here, parallel to Oberon and Titania in Midsummer Night's Dream Tom: asks Constance about Kaos on Netflix Constance: Riddy (Eurydice) is not as into Orpheus as he is into her. she goes to Underworld and falls in love with someone else, finding herself in death. crux of Orpheus & Eurydice is that the stakes are very unbalanced: him, possession and loss; her, life and death. Does Eurydice really want to leave or is she "song-roofied"? in Kaos do come to terms with differing desires. (me, sotto voce to Tom: now would be a great time to ask me about Harrow the Ninth!) Tom: asks me about Harrow the Ninth => me: apologies for spoilers. at the end of Gideon the Ninth, Gideon kills herself to save Harrow. when Harrow opens, there's a thread that's Harrow after the first book, and there's a thread that's a retelling of Gideon ... except without Gideon. and it's because Harrow cannot accept Gideon's death, so has literally excised Gideon's existence from her brain, which for magical reasons means that Gideon is not truly dead yet. and Gideon's big mad about it: she wanted to give Harrow her death! Harrow won't take it! they are all kind of messed up and I love them for it. me cont'd: but to me, the three interesting things about Orpheus and Eurydice stories are: why does Eurydice die? why can't Orpheus look back? and why does he fail? and Hadestown and Harrow both give answers to the first and second, and Hadestown also to the third (he's removed from community as well as from Eurydice). Constance: like Buffy, was also happy being dead. Orpheus always has to look back, but maybe Eurydice isn't always following. Tom: L’Esprit de L’Escalier, by Catherynne M. Valente; I Never Liked You Anyway, by Jordan Kurella Greer: The Ground Beneath Her Feet, Salman Rushdie Sophia: where you have consistent weather patterns, water, less war: stories about gods are primarily benevolent tricksters. inverse: stories about gods are, why is the world like this. inexplicablity is the point. audience: is Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead an Orpheus and Eurydice story? also has cycles, inevitability, author's choice of hell (this was clearly a reference to something from early on that I failed to note down, sorry) Sophia: feels much more Hadestown than Orpheus and Eurydice, the point of Orpheus and Eurydice is that it's a one-time thing. but Shakespeare may be like myth in terms of the audience's sense of knowledge and thus sense of repetition. Greer: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern have no choice from the beginning. audience: re: choice of hell, do Orpheus and Eurydice retellings land differently when they're from a Christian-pervasive society where it's Hell, rather than an Underworld that everyone goes to? Constance: Moulin Rouge, the "underworld" is the seedy music scene, but it's all about perspective, if you're not dying from consumption it's much less bad (possibly even welcoming?). also Kaos is much more Greek and has a whole society in the Underworld Sophia: "other" doesn't have to be "under" in the place you go, refers to Greer's mention of Faerie in Sir Orfeo. also Christianity also gets into ideas of cleanliness re: the "other" place, and that almost fits better with the woods. See also the rescue of Sita Constance: Farscape, Aeryn Sun, can't go back because been exposed to other worlds/peoples Greer: Scandinavian versions where Eurydice goes under the sea based on who stole her audience: Severance, Underworld self has no awareness of other Constance: Mark is both Orpheus and Eurydice: rescues and doesn't, stays and goes audience: always thought the story was about the denial of death, not the loss of faith: the understanding that it's never going to work. therefore always liked versions that took on that question, that are about grief and not getting life back after a death. recommendations? me: Harrow Sophia: this is awful and I apologize, but: my work-in-progress Greer: interested in stories that complete the myth and have Orpheus torn to pieces (I know this happens in the Sandman)panel notes
SPOILERS for Gideon the Ninth and Harrow the Ninth
spoilers for Severance S2
Edit: forgot to add the other thing I linked to on Bluesky: the last show with Reeve Carney (who originated Orpheus on Broadway), in which, after the bows and speeches, he gets to take Eurydice home.
+1 (thumbs-up, I see you, etc.)?
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gah! I forgot that I mentioned The Fortunate Fall in my intro which literally has a chapter titled "Orpheus," but it's even more spoilers to explain how so I didn't
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Gilgamesh!
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now I am thinking that someone mentioned that during the panel, though I don't know if it was in response to this!
also the descent of Inanna came up in passing a couple of times.
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Yay! I just taught this.
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Thanks for this.
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oh wow, that was great, thanks!
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what originally posted in this comment was a response to the wrong thing!
the poem was new to me and it was wonderful--somehow I didn't know that Hermes had been associated with Eurydice specifically before, rather than just his general role.
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https://archiveofourown.org/collections/yuletide2012/works/598600
(login needed)
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accordingly to my old Yuletide recs, I liked that one and also this from the same year!
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A story I'm working on now actually needs me to go back in the second draft and put in more emphasis on the moment of looking back, because that's not what interested me in this particular retelling; I was interested in the suggestion that Orpheus, after his failure, never gets over it, and goes on grieving Eurydice, as if it's a fresh grief, continually renewed. But my early readers wanted more attention on the traditional climactic moment, and they're probably right.
Anyway, this is really interesting, thank you for posting it!
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I mean, it's your story! (maybe it doesn't need to be on-screen at all.) but I'm glad you found it food for thought, that's the goal!
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isn't it wonderful? you're welcome!
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thanks for letting me know you found these useful!