kate_nepveu | Bittercon: Levels and Limits of Metafictionality

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bittercon

Bittercon: Levels and Limits of Metafictionality

Bittercon panel number three. And dual-purpose of getting something off my to-write list!

Levels and Limits of Metafictionality

Stories about stories. When can the teller of a story successfully interact with the story, and when is it a cheat?

Examples that I think work (how they do is spoiler-protected and cut for length): Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy, in which kids cross into another world and it looks like their "let's pretend" game is real; the musical The Drowsy Chaperone, where a fan of a musical plays a record, imagines the production, and talks to the audience about the songs, staging, artists, and story; Katherine Blake's (Dorothy Heydt) novel The Interior Life, in which a housewife has detailed daydreams about a secondary fantasy world. What else? And is Dream of the Endless automatically disqualified?

(Don't spoil people, please: ROT13 spoilers or put them between <span style="color: #999999; background-color: #999999"> </span>.)

All spoilers are ROT13'ed, which I prefer because I'm sure no-one's styles will mess it up.

The Secret Country trilogy: hzz, rzoneenffvatyl V qba'g guvax V pna npphengryl qrfpevor gur zrpunavfz orpnhfr vg'f orra n juvyr, ohg pregnvayl gur bgure jbeyq jnf erny; gurer jnf whfg fbzr jnl gung fgbevrf sebz bhe jbeyq pebffrq bire naq unq rssrpg ba gurvef. Evtug?

The Drowsy Chaperone: gur aneengbe trgf nyy fnq ng gur raq naq cnhfrf gur erpbeq, naq gur punenpgref va gur zhfvpny pbzr bhg bs gurve sebmra cbfrf naq vapbecbengr uvz vagb gur qnapr fprar—juvpu ng svefg unq zr ivoengvat jvgu vaqvtangvba, ohg ng gur raq bs gur ahzore ur'f onpx va uvf punve, naq vg frrzrq pyrne gung ur jnf vzntvavat orvat cneg bs vg gb yvsg uvf fcvevgf, be vg jnf n zrgncube sbe gur cbjre bs fgbel gb erzbir barfrys sebz bar'f gebhoyrf; gur zhfvpny jnfa'g ernyyl gnxvat cynpr va uvf ncnegzrag.

The Interior Life: V jnf pbaivaprq gung gur ubhfrjvsr jbhyq pebff vagb gur frpbaqnel snagnfl jbeyq, naq V jnf fb vzcerffrq jura fur qvqa'g.

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I can't read the gobbledegook, but then I've forgotten most of the details of the Blake. But wow, a great topic indeed.

Sorry--paste in at http://www.rot13.com/ or install the bookmarklet here http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/rot13.php

Story whose title I can't remember; I think by Edmond Hamilton: Starts off with what looks like the standard (in old sf) frame story of men playing cards. In this case, writers. One tells the story: He invented a world to set his stories in -- barbaric, colorful, a lot of fun to read about (and write about), but not really one any civilized man would want to live in.

He got more and more absorbed in this story-world. And then, one day, he found himself trapped in it.

Someone asks how he got out.

"V'z fgvyy urer."

How did you react to that punchline?

Dream would be closer to the idea that belief creates supernatural beings.

I get annoyed when stories reveal that the book the protagonist is writing is the one you're reading. It's especially hard to swallow when it then goes on the describe events after its publication and the death of the author.

Do self-fullfilling time travel stories count?

Not quite the same thing, but the webcomic Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) is set in a D&D universe where (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0143.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).

I get annoyed when stories reveal that the book the protagonist is writing is the one you're reading. It's especially hard to swallow when it then goes on the describe events after its publication and the death of the author.

That's--gasp--*breaking* *POV*! (One of my personal pet peeves.)

The explicit identification of the POV character with the "author" (err, as opposed to the person whose name is on the book's cover; "narrator" isn't right because that doesn't require the telling be in writing) is tricky, I think for the reason you say: it's hard to keep your reader's suspension of disbelief--"okay, now you say you're writing this down, but do you really mean that you *remember* all this in so much detail?" Whereas if it's known to be written all along, like a diary or letters, there's more reason to think that the "author" remembers, or if it's just not specified, the reader can assume a position inside the POV character's head as the story unfolds.

I think anything in first has to address those issues. Either the letters/diary thing, which I call "first headlong" meaning that the narrator doesn't know in advance how things are going to come out, and you're carried along at the same pace, or else you have to have a time and place and purpose for which the whole thing is being written. In all my published first person novels I explicitly address the issue of memory -- cheating with giving Sulien the same kind of good memory I have, and with Lucy in Farthing explicitly saying about dialogue that mostly she's just saying what she sort of remembers they said, but this next bit is word-for-word, sort of thing. In Ha'Penny and Half a Crown I have a time and place and purpose but I just let the memory thing glide.

I don't like letters and diary, I don't mind reading them, but I don't like writing them because characters change and grow as time goes by, which I'm fine with, but I don't want to have to deal with as regards narrative voice. Though now I think of it, it might be fun. But it also would be quite a hard mode for me, I think, I'd have to be very aware of that. The times I have tried it, I had problems.

The other form of first is what I call "brain dump" where it isn't being written (or recorded, like Vlad), you're being carried along inside the head of the first person voice, often in present tense.

I certainly am more comfortable, from my peculiar focus on POV, when those issues are addressed. I keep getting twitchy every time in _Melusine_ that Mildmay's narration appears retrospective or explicitly narrated to another person, since it seems very unlikely that the series as a whole is meant to be.

Or, maybe I'm just oversensitive. Whatever.

I think it definitely does seem like Mildmay's talking to someone more than Felix is, but it feels to me like he's just talking to himself. He's in what's basically an alien culture most of the time, and in general seems to be kind of an introvert, both of which would make his internal monologue much more self-conscious. If it's intentional (or if I'm not just completely imagining it), I'd say the difference in tone is a pretty effective technique for conveying Mildmay's level of social isolation as contrasted with Felix's.

I flagged one comment especially in my re-read: "I'd lost the rest of it somehow--I can't even tell *you* how anymore." (emphasis added)

But overall I like your interpretation of the self-consciousness of it. Thank you, that's helpful for my thinking about it.

From musicals, another good one is Into the Woods with the narrator being dragged into the action at one point gb or fnpevsvprq gb n tvnag... ohg yrnivat gur punenpgref gb erterg univat bss'q uvz jura gurl ernyvmr gurl qba'g xabj jung gurl'er fhccbfrq gb qb arkg. There's also the implication at the end that the narrator himself is the Baker's son, passing on the stories that his father told him...

Also: I'm still one volume away from the end, but one that has really struck me is the Princess Tutu anime. On its most basic level, the setup deals with a prince and a crow who escaped from the pages of a story and the magical Princess Tutu who is helping them return. But when the story starts to play itself in the "real" world, the lines between reality and story become practically non-existent, with characters aware that they're in a story and bar punenpgre qvfpbirevat gung ur vf qrfpraqrq sebz gur bevtvany nhgube (jub vf nyfb gur aneengbe/pbzzragngbe bs gur frevrf) naq guhf unf gur cbjre gb nssrpg gur pheerag fgbel jvgu uvf bja jevgvat.

I'm not reading your _Princess Tutu_ spoilers because I intend to watch that.

The _Into the Woods_ one is interesting--does it work because of the nature of fairy tales, in your opinion?

Oh, yes--Into the Woods--another one that really influenced me. It's not a spoiler to say that the narrator interacts with the story through much of it. It's all about what happens after "happily ever after," and how real life is different from story.

There's also the implication at the end that the narrator himself is the Baker's son, passing on the stories that his father told him...

Do you really think so? But ... gur bgure punenpgref _xvyy_ gur aneengbe unysjnl guebhtu gur fgbel, qba'g gurl? Be nz V zvferzrzorevat?

Another example that I liked is "The Little Country" by Charles De Lint where jung frrz gb or gjb nygreangr havirefrf ner yvaxrq ol n obbx. Naq gur obbx va rnpu havirefr frrzf gb or gryyvat gur fgbel bs riragf gung unccarq va gur bgure.

I hated that.

. . . wow, that would be hard to pull off.

Is there an in-story explanation for that?

Yes.

Although what you basically have is two separate stories with certain interconnections.

I think in The Interior Life the thing that impressed me most about that was when someone was talking to someone else, in the fantasy world, and used the character from the real world as an example of a friend's experience. I loved that. I really admire the way that book makes things work that shouldn't work, and also how amazingly positive it is. Downbeat is so much easier to write than genuinely positive.

As for the Secret Country books, the mechanism -- jnf gung fgbevrf cnffrq guebhtu sebz bhe jbeyq jurer vzntvangvba vf vzntvangvba, gb gurvef, jurer vzntvangvba naq perngvivgl ner zntvp, ohg lbh pna pubbfr jurgure gurl svg lbh be abg. Zrynavr tnir gur puvyqera fgbevrf be fbzrguvat sebz gurve jbeyq jura gur puvyqera jrer va bhe jbeyq (vg'f abg rkcynvarq ubj, abe ubj gur puvyqera fb pybfryl erfrzoyr gur Eblny Puvyqera) ohg gur tnzr gurl cynlrq gura nssrpgrq gur Frperg Pbhagel jbeyq... rkprcg jvgu pubvpr va gurer.

Va gur svefg obbx, orsber gur zheqre naq pbebangvba, V ernyyl yvxr gur jnl vg vagrenpgf, jura gurl'er gelvat gb fgbc jung gurl xabj vf tbvat gb unccra. Va gur frpbaq obbx, guvf nyfb jbexf jryy, naq gura va gur guveq jurer gur crbcyr va gur jbeyq xabj gurl'er vzcbfgref gung tvirf vg serfuarff, ohg V qb svaq vg yrff pbby, rfcrpvnyyl jura vg arrqf gb or rkcynvarq. Ubjrire, V ybir gur npghny raq fb zhpu V'yy sbetvir vg nalguvat.

Great books.

Man, now I want to re-read _The Interior Life_. Can't! Must read all this stuff to vote in the Hugos and Campbells!

It doesn't really surprise me that it didn't sell well, even without the terrible cover, but I do wish it could be made available now from Lulu or as an e-book or something.

Thank you for the explanation of the Secret Country books--that was very embarrassing.

I love books that prove wrong the instinctive reaction that "no, that couldn't possibly be done well."

The Interior Life might have done better published a mainstream novel-- it reminds of Anne Tyler as a fantasy writer-- but maybe not. It strikes me as being too mainstream for most fantasy readers, and too genre for most mainstream readers.

Yeah, that's why I'm not surprised. My guess is that it's a book with a really small but fervent audience.

That horrid cover did stop my partner, who for the most part has an excellent taste in literature, from reading it.

They make these fabric-y book cover things . . .

So did you catch the bit with the fonts in _The Interior Life_?

If I recall correctly, the idea was that there were different fonts for the different worlds (and perhaps other things but that's the one I remember).

It didn't work as well as hoped, since the fonts used were too similar in appearance.

I noticed them, but I notice things like that. Unfortunately I don't think they could've done three really different fonts without problems--either being ugly, or taking up too much page, or being unreadable. There's a reason books are basically printed in similar-ish serifed fonts, after all.

Unfortunately I don't think they could've done three really different fonts without problems

Perhaps.

But they should at least have been able to make the two main fonts more distinct.

(If I'm interpreting the relevant rasfw discussion correctly, the third font is used much less than the other two.)

Yes, the third one's only used a little.

It's really at least five fonts, though, because both of the two main ones also appear in italics.

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Oh yes, how could I forget about the Dark Tower series? Are you putting that in the "character in the story" category? I remember spending a while working all that out, and eventually decided that I didn't have to throw the book at the wall because it did come down to the author as just another character, and even made sense for the plot. (The wall-throwing came at the very end, I'm afraid.)

Putting the author in as a character opens a can of worms about degrees of reality and interaction among them which I think The Dark Tower has an easier time with than many because of having form the very beginning a very strong in-universe force of destiny, such that the telling of the story is not on a different scale as a working out of said force from the actions of the characters. Which is not to say that destiny as a concept does not usually irk me greatly, but King gets away with it pretty much on sheer wordskill, the resolution to the King-as-character element is far and away my fabvourite bit of the last volume. [ I think that's reasonably spoiler-free. ]

Yes, re: destiny, there's that. Also, I can't remember if we've talked about this before or not, but for purposes of the panel:

Spoilers:

Vg'f rvgure fnvq be vzcyvrq gung gur abiryf jevggra ol punenpgre!Xvat ner zrnag gb ercynpr gur ornzf, naq gung znxrf na vaghvgvir frafr gb zr gung znxrf hc sbe n ybg. Jryy, nf ybat gur punenpgre vf n pbaqhvg naq abg n perngbe.

Oh, clever. That connection had passed me by; I shall be rereading the last three again soon anyway, and will keep an eye out for any explicit mention of same.

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At the risk of reopening this can of worms, I love the actual ending of Dark Tower. Hate the "ending" immediately before though. For what that may be worth.

I'm okay with reopening it--it might even be "on topic" for whatever values thereof I feel like applying!--as long as people use spoiler protection. Heck, someone might even say something that reconciles me to it.

Douglas Coupland's jPod includes a version of himself as one of the characters. Gur znva punenpgre (naq aneengbe) zrrgf punenpgre-Pbhcynaq cnegjnl guebhtu, ba n cynar, naq yrnirf uvf yncgbc bcra, ng juvpu cbvag gur Pbhcynaq punenpgre tbrf guebhtu vg. Nobhg n guveq bs gur jnl guebhtu gur obbx, gur aneengbe nterrf gb yrg Pbhcynaq gnxr uvf yvsr sbe n obbx va rkpunatr sbe erfphr sebz n eheny cneg bs Puvan. Naq gura ng gur irel raq, Pbhcynaq znxrf nabgure qrny sbe gur erfg bs gur punenpgre'f wbheany, juvpu jr'er fhccbfrq gb nffhzr orpnzr wCbq.

Vg qvqa'g jbex sbe zr, ohg V'z abg fher vs gung'f orpnhfr bs gur jnl ur rkrphgrq vg be orpnhfr gur obbx nf n jubyr qvqa'g ubyq gbtrgure jryy sbe zr.

That strikes me as implying a very particular thing about authorship. How odd.

Another example of characters interacting badly with stories is Fforde's The Fourth Bear. The protagonist is investigating the disappearance of Goldilocks, and he already knew how particular she was, and when he talks to the bears, he knows "she will never been seen again." But then at the end (mild spoilers) ur qrqhprf gur cerfrapr bs n sbhegu orne sebz gur snpg gur cbeevqtrf jrer qvssrerag grzcrengherf naq gung gur guerr orqf zrnaf fnvq sbhegu orne jnf univat na nssnve jvgu znzn orne. Ugh. I'll try the next Thursday Next book, but I won't read any more Nursery Crimes.

I don't think I get it--how does the title interact with your spoilers?

Heh. I'm rereading The Secret Country books right now.

Have you read Michael Ende's The Neverending Story? Deeply influential on me as a kid, and deeply metafictional.

It's anime, not fiction, but Princess Tutu is also deeply metafictional. A writer was telling a story, he died before it was through, and his characters escaped the tale--but he's still, even though dead, trying to get the story going again, and trying to control it. He finally resorts into bringing in a new character--and along the way changing a duck into a girl who herself can change into a magical ballerina--but of course, she does things he doesn't expect, too.

Both Neverending Story and Tutu do it well. But both also make very clear that this is metafiction from the start.

In my current book (Secret of the Three Treasures), I have a character who very self-consciously tells the story of her life as it's happening--and uses that story to help turn herself into the adventurer she dreams of being, rather than the ordinary suburban kid everyone else sees. There world of story isn't separate from our world, but it does change how she interacts with our world. In telling her story, she helps make it the story she wants it to be.

I love books where the characters get to interact with the story. I think the tricky (but also fun) thing is, you then have to figure out how the story world and our world relate to, and influence, one another.

I have read _The Neverending Story_ but I don't remember it hardly at all. I'm planning to watch _Princess Tutu_.

Making it clear that it's metafiction from the start is good, but I don't think it's either necessary or sufficient.

I like the idea of the character in your book--that's really neat.

I love and adore Princess Tutu. Great stuff for writers and passionate readers both.

The only meta-fictional reading I've done (I think) is Peter Straub's Koko, Mystery and The Throat. All wonderful books, and rnpu obbx vf n abiry va gur jbeyq bs gur arkg obbx va gur frevrf, as I recall. They aren't horror and they aren't really mysteries. I'm not sure what they are. And I must admit that I read them at a time in my life when I wasn't reading very well. I should revisit them.

What does interest me about meta-fiction is the way it resembles some very ordinary genres. I'm thinking specifically about mysteries and ghost stories. Both are (generally speaking) stories about the uncovering of a second, secret story. Who really killed His Lordship? What awful circumstance really created all those ghosts in Wormwood Manor?

For instance: Instruments of Night by Thomas H. Cook. It's about a seriously troubled mystery/thriller writer who is invited to spend a summer at a resort so he can look into a decades-old mystery. No one expects him to actually solve the crime--they just want him to come up with a narrative that will satisfy the victim's mother in a way the official version of the crime never has.

The book is full to the brim of the protagonist's morbid imagination as he pictures the crime over and over again. Every new piece of information prompts another grim mental image of the victims last moments. It's a powerful and difficult book.

Also, I was struck by a story in Dashiell Hammet's collection The Continental Op in which the detective has captured the criminal and cvrprf gbtrgure gur fgbel bs gur pevzr jvgu nyy gur pyhrf ur'f tngurerq fb sne, naq jura fur cebgrfgf gung ur unf vg nyy pbzcyrgryl jebat, ur gryyf ure gung vg qbrfa'g znggre, orpnhfr gur fgbel ur'f pbbxrq hc svgf nyy gur rivqrapr. Vg'yy or tbbq rabhtu sbe gur pbcf Ur qbrfa'g arprffnevyl pner ubj gehr uvf irefvba bs gur frperg fgbel vf, whfg ubj hfrshy vg vf.

That one bit gave me tingles.

And maybe this is a digression from the topic of the thread (okay--no maybes about it) but stories within stories interest me, so I digress.

A digression but an interesting one! Have you read _Have His Carcase_ by Sayers? It's very much about the process of constructing detective novels, and so may be of interest to you.

And like mysteries & ghost stories, metafiction needs to play fair with the reader? I think it's a place to start, anyway.

I haven't read the Sayers, but it's on my library hold list now. Thanks!

I do think the metafiction needs to play fair, but even then there are some readers who won't follow a writer there. They're just not interested in the same way someone else would not be interested in a story about a detective who has conversation after conversation about some incident that occurred in the past. I love it, but I can see why others wouldn't.

And I completely forgot a metafiction "book" I read years ago: the Animal Man comics from the late eighties.

Animal Man was an uninspiring hero in the DC Universe that had a string of very strange issues at the end of Grant Morrison's run. Ur svefg zrg n pnegbba Jvyr R. Pblbgr jub unq onetnvarq jvgu uvf navzngbe gb or frg serr sebz uvf bja ivbyrag jbeyq vagb gur pbzvp obbx jbeyq. Gur raq bs gur vffhr npghnyyl fubjrq na navzngbe'f cnvag oehfu pbybevat va gur fprar.

Bire gur arkg frireny vffhrf, Navzny Zna'f snzvyl vf xvyyrq, naq juvyr ur tbrf penml gnxvat eriratr, ur ortvaf gb ernyvmr gung ur'f n svpgvbany punenpgre va n pbzvp obbx. Ur geniryf gb gur arirejbeyq jurer hahfrq punenpgref jnvg gb or jevggra vagb gur fgbevrf ntnva. Ur zrrgf punenpgref jub erzrzore gur erinzcf naq erivfvbaf gung gur rqvgbef unir qvpgngrq bagb gur QP Havirefr. Punenpgref gnxr abgr bs gur cnary obeqref naq pbzzrag ba gur tvnag snprf bs gur ernqref ybbxvat qbja ba gurz naq rawblvat gurve zvfrel. Navzny Zna rira zbirf bhgfvqr gur obeqref bs gur pbzvp cnaryf gb tnva na nqinagntr va n svtug.

Svanyyl, ur zrrgf uvf bja jevgre, naq gur gjb bs gurz fcraq na ragver vffhr gnyxvat nobhg nyy gur ubeevoyr guvatf gur jevgre qvq gb gur punenpgre, naq gur jevgre'f whfgvsvpngvba sbe vg. Gurl raq gur vffhr, nf V erzrzore, jvgu gur jevgre oevatvat Navzny Zna'f snzvyl onpx gb yvsr--rffragvnyyl jvcvat njnl gur ynfg frireny vffhrf jvgu "Vg jnf bayl n qernz" be fbzrguvat fvzvyne.

At the time I first read it, I didn't care for it much. I was looking for something specific and this wasn't it. I'd like a chance to go back to it again now that I'm older and very, very slighty more mature.

After you've finished it, check out

truepenny's series of posts about it, part of a series on Sayers: http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=truepenny&keyword=DLS&filter=all

What a very peculiar comic you describe. I have a hard time believing it could work, but then, it's all about the execution, isn't it?

What a very peculiar comic

Makes me think of Van Allsburg's Bad Day at Riverbend and Pratchett's "Final Reward".

> All wonderful books, and rnpu obbx vf n abiry va gur jbeyq bs gur arkg obbx va gur frevrf, as I recall.

Cloud Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Atlas) does something a bit like that, except each story is interrupted by the one it appears in, and they appear as (roughly) memoirs, not as fiction.

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Bittercon: Levels and Limits of Metafictionality

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