kate_nepveu | WorldCon: Things I Did Wrong

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WorldCon: Things I Did Wrong

(I was planning to write this as a section of my big roundup post pretty much from the start, to be titled "Ego Boosting and Deflating," but since I see an aspect of it is being discussed, I thought I should break it out separately so it would go up quicker.)

A number of people were kind enough to say to me that they liked things I said on panels or the way I moderated or things I write online. I am very grateful for and appreciative of those comments. However, since very few people (even at a con!) are going to come up to me and say that they thought I did a lousy job or said something stupid, I thought it important to publicly acknowledge the times I did something wrong at the con.

I suggested a group of people sit somewhere physically incapable of accommodating at least one of the members of the group. I apologized to the group at least but possibly not to the specific person; I apologize for being ableist and sizeist.
During a panel, I interrupted karnythia to explain something that she was going to get to in just a minute. (I apologized after.)
Upon reflection, I'm pretty sure I mispronounced karnythia's name at least once while on a panel. I apologize.
(I read by word recognition not phonetics and keep wanting to swap the "n" and "y" in her name, "cah-RIN-thee-ah" instead of "car-NEE-thee-ah." However, she said it out loud, that's no excuse, I should have written it down.)
I told Kathryn Cramer something true but not complete and appeared two-faced as a result.
When she approached me and said that she regretted that I had dropped off a panel with her called "X, Why? Minorities in a Large Field, or Majorities in Our Own?," I said that I had been scheduled for items at 9:00, 10:00 (that one), 11:00, and 12:30. I should also have added "and as you know, we have fundamental differences of viewpoint, so I didn't feel it appropriate to be on a panel with you." I apologize for the inaccuracy.

(I was considerably surprised by her approaching me, especially since I had previously been told that she had stated that I had refused to be on a panel with her [*], and so socialization took over in the absence of preparation.)

[*] Yes, her knowledge of this raises other issues; I'm asking you all to defer discussion of them for now.
I was a thoughtless Anglophone to hotel staff several times.

I have more complicated thoughts on my moderation of the "Writing Racial and Ethnic Diversity in Geographic Terms" panel, but I think they need to wait.

Do feel free to add to this list. Anonymous commenting is on here as usual, but I will screen gratuitously nasty comments (and then repost under ROT13 so you all can judge for yourselves).

(As I've said before: please don't say "oh gosh those aren't that bad, you're too hard on yourself" or whatever. I'm not looking for consolation or cookies. Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd save anything nice you were planning to say for a more topical post. => )

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Well, by that thinking it's also a reasonable expectation that many customer service oriented folks here in the Southwest speak Spanish, and that's very much not the case. I'm not sure we have a right to expect English from others when our country is so unwilling to accommodate those who don't speak same, even in border communities.

Because a lot of Americans are monolingual and jerks about it, it's unreasonable to expect that customer service people in a large Montreal hotel will be conversant in English?

It's unreasonable for Americans to expect this, yes.

People from countries that show similar respect in turn have more right to expect this sort of thing, IMHO--but of course, they're less likely to expect it, too.

I also point out that it's no an officially-mandated position. There's no requirement for it.

It is, however, good business sense.

No argument that it's wise to speak multiple languages, and to one's benefit.

I don't think we have a right to expect it, but I agree that it's good business sense from the side of those being monolingual.

It'd be good business sense for us here, too.

People from countries that show similar respect in turn have more right to expect this sort of thing, IMHO--but of course, they're less likely to expect it, too.

What countries "show similar respect" in having multilingual hotel staff, except for St. Martin/St. Maarten? I've never heard of a national policy about that anywhere else.

Also, I had an astonishing experience in St. Martin/St. Maarten translating for the only Swiss person I have ever met who did not speak either English or French at all--it wasn't clear to me if he spoke only German, or German and rudimentary Italian, but the hotel workers were completely crestfallen that their English, French, and Dutch was inadequate.

My understanding is that much of Europe uses English as a sort of tourist language, and I know many people travel same with the expectation they can find enough English to get by, and generally expect to find it in hotels and such.

For Europe I can only speak from personal experience about Switzerland and Iceland, both of which very much made the effort to have hotel staff that spoke English. (In Iceland, English and German are required in school, and it's just assumed everyone will learn them.)

Also in the small bits of Mexico I've been to, there's been English among hotel staff and other tourist establishments.

My understanding is that most countries have multilingual citizens, which sort of by definition means having multilingual hotel staff.

(Another exception may be Britain, though I haven't been there--but it was kind of astonishing how many of the crew members on British Airways spoke only English, something which caused some problems on at least one flight I was on. Maybe it's only English speakers who get smug about language ...)

Edited 2009-08-12 21:42 (UTC)

Maybe it's only English speakers who get smug about language

Oh, no. A Cantonese-speaking friend of mine rolls her eyes at a mutual Mandarin-speaking friend who sneers at her language as being 'not really Chinese' - she tells me this is prevalent among Mandarin speakers. I'm given to understand as well that there are parts of Belgium where people are snooty about speaking French to the point of pretending not to speak Flams. And apparently migrant workers in California who speak minority (in their native country) languages like Mixtec are looked down upon by Spanish-speaking workers.

Fair enough. :-)

I do think we have the luxury of being able to find English almost anywhere these days, to some extent, at least in the west, though that may be true for different languages in other regions, too.

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maradydd.livejournal.com - 2009-08-14 10:43 (UTC) - Expand

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corruptedjasper.livejournal.com - 2009-08-15 23:39 (UTC) - Expand

When I was living in Zurich, I can state categorically that every person who worked in a restaurant was conversant in German, French and English (and probably Italian). I can't speak for the hotels beyond the bar at the Widder Hotel (which has, BTW, an excellent whisky selection), having not stayed in any there.

I did have a bit of trouble getting a PAYG mobile phone in Sihlcity, though; my German isn't very good and neither was the counter staff's English. But I wouldn't have expected English there.

Of course, in Britain we only speak English[1] and have problems with Americans who only speak American (this is a joke, of course; in actuality we get so many American programmes on TV these days that most of us understand American with no problem; this wasn't however the case when I was growing up in the 60s when there were a number of problems with American terms and pronunciation not being understood).

But in general the English tend to be monoglots, almost as much as U.S. Americans, in spite of being so close to countries speaking other languages. Other European[2] countries tend to be better, with the Dutch in particular taking pride of place at speaking whatever language the tourists speak (and often better than the tourists speak their own language). Although away from tourist areas this is less common, I found parts of Germany where even English wasn't generally understood at all (and some parts where German wasn't spoken; Schwaebisch is effectively a different language).

[1] Apart from the Welsh, for many of whom English is a second language, and Scots and Geordies and Scousers who speak dialects which are not always mutually intelligible.

[2] Many Brits still don't accept Britain as being part of Europe. There was the famous British headline "Continent cut off" (by bad weather), and a lot of British people still refer to 'Europe' meaning the non-British part of Europe.

Is it unreasonable for Anglophone Canadians or Brits to expect that in a country that is officially English and French-speaking, the customer-service staff in a large Montreal hotel will be conversant in English? Really?

It's not about "mutual respect" or Americans being dumb monolinguals (which is partly a function of our geography rather than mere xenophobia - Europe is not as culturally cool as rumor would have you believe), it's about good business sense.

Except that there are folks in Quebec who speak only French, and folks in other provinces who speak only English ... my understanding is that being an English-and-French speaking country does not, in fact, mean that everyone everywhere speaks both English and French. And I don't actually know the culture, but it wouldn't surprise me at all that in a French speaking province you'd find people without English.

Sure, it's good business sense--no arguments with the notion it'd be wise to speak English. But I do have trouble with the notion that we have any right to expect English in a French speaking province--we're the visitors there.

And I'm well aware of the role our oceans play in our monolingualism, and am less and less convinced that's any excuse, given the many different communities folks come from. And it's especially no excuse in border states--and there is an element of xenophobia there.

No illusions about Europe being cool in all ways--I have relatives in Switzerland, and have gotten a sense of the flaws as well as the things done well. But I do think they're way better about languages than us. (And I include myself in that--my own monolingualism is something I know I need to work on.)

They may well speak English, but it's appalling of anyone to demand it of them.

I mean I am about as Anglophone as anyone living in Montreal can be, and this comment made me bristle.

This is a French speaking province, if you want English act like someone who is part of a minority, not like someone entitled and you'll be fine.

If you can't speak English, you shouldn't be on a customer-facing position *anywhere* in the western world, let alone in Canada. Especially not in a *hotel*, ferchrissake.

Note that I work for an ISP helpdesk in a single-language, non-English-speaking country[1] where every single agent is required to speak English as well, just for the occasional immigrant. Not majority American or British immigrants, mind you, that switch to English to deal with us.

[1] Well, there's Frisian, but we don't offer *that*.

I'd expect that in a hotel, yes, and likely in a restaurant as well.

(True story: I went to buy a camera battery in Lugano and discovered that the man in the camera shop in the center of one of the biggest tourist destinations in officially-multilingual Switzerland spoke NOTHING but Italian (not even French or German). That boggled me.

Now, to be fair, on rereading what

kate_nepveu wrote above, she said "hotel staff" rather than making it clear if she was talking to client-facing staff. I'd have no such expectations of, say, housekeeping or maintenence staff, but front desk, restaurant, bell staff, concierge? Absolutely.

Edited 2009-08-12 15:48 (UTC)

Not just client facing staff, but even there, I wanted to do "bonjour hi" or ask rather than just start talking.

Why? I mean, certainly you don't want to be the American who shouts really slowly, but I don't think you need to feel guilty about speaking English to Montreal customer service staff at a large international hotel. Unless you're fluent in French. Personally I'd worry that being able to say not much more than "bonjour" would come across as trying way too hard.

No, but I consider it polite when in a place that isn't Anglophone to at least acknowledge that I _know_ it isn't.

Why? I mean, I agree that it certainly is polite not to expect (in the "how dare you not SPEAK ENGLISH sense") that everyone on the planet is Anglophone. But in a country that is officially bilingual, in a hotel that has a lot of English-speaking clientele, where your native and primary language is English, merely speaking English doesn't strike me as an offensive act.

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kate_nepveu - 2009-08-14 14:07 (UTC) - Expand

It's polite. I did try to say "bonjour" and followed it with "parlez-vous Anglais?" if I actually wanted to converse (if they had replied "non" then I would have attempted to continue in French, which would probably have been painful for both sides since I learnt it around 40 years ago and haven't really used it since). The exception was the hotel desk, where I had already confirmed that they were happy to use English with the guests (and indeed preferred it to having to decipher ancient school French).

The only place so far I've been stumped in learning at least the politenesses (hello, goodbye, please and thankyou) was in Guangzhou ('Canton', China), where the pitched tonal language defeated me. Apparently at least one of the ways I said "Ni ha" (hello) was rather rude, and I couldn't hear the difference, so I gave up rather than be impolite in a different way. I believe that if I at least start and end with attempting to use the local language people will be more willing to make the effort to communicate.

Agreed with the polite. I live in a city in Flanders where probably 70% of the people are fluent in English (they tell me TV and movies have a lot to do with it), and even then I start off with "Dag, sprekt Engels?" if I know I'm not going to be able to blunder through in Flemish.

And I hear you on the tonal languages thing. A couple of my fellow linguistics students in grad school were from Shanghai, and they tried to teach me tones. Apparently I am tone deaf, since I failed epically. I still have no idea what I said, but apparently it was really funny.

I'd feel better about it if I knew my country extended similar respect in turn, but living in a border state, I know too well that we don't.

And, come to think about it...Canada's part of the Commonwealth (and uses UK spelling). How about tourists and business travellers from other English-speaking countries?

But they still drive on the wrong side[1] of the road *g*. The spelling is not too much of a problem, given how many people maek spelign erorrs all teh tiem the differences between American and British spellings rarely cause misunderstandings in practice. Some of the words, however (please do not go into a British Gentleman's Tailor and ask for a DJ, vest, pants and suspenders[2] like a couple of young American lads I knew did in the 60s!)...

[1] Which is, of course, the right side, due to oddities of the language...

[2] For the sake of any Americans who aren't familiar with the differences, what they wanted was an evening suit with a waistcoat, trousers and braces, what they asked for was a disc jockey with underwear and a garter belt...

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