Your question for the day

[kate_nepveu]

Are Trent the Uncatchable and Vash the Stampede cross-cultural manifestations of the same archetype—goofy-seeming pacifists who do improbable things and around whom improbable things happen? If so, what other manifestations are there?

Comments

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Jackie Chan?

[kate_nepveu]

. . . actually, I think that's not so far off.

[the_rck]

I know there are others, but I'm blanking right now.

I really wish that Moran had published more books.

[kate_nepveu]

Heh. See next rock.

[schulman.livejournal.com]

Doctor Who, although he's not as pacifist as he used to be. (I just watched the Christmas special, in which he blows stuff up real good.)

[kate_nepveu]

Hmm. The thing that interests me about Vash & Trent is that their pacifism is a defining trait; I don't watch Doctor Who, is that the case for him?

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

In some eras, yes. It comes and goes. The Doctor is one of those heroes who never carries a weapon, though he does carry tools that can have secondary uses as weapons, and sometimes uses them.

William Hartnell's First Doctor doesn't strike me as pacifist at all, but it became more of a defining trait in the 1970s. Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor was very much the goofy, seemingly mad joker who disdained fighting, though his attitude toward it was more amused contempt than anything else. The Fifth Doctor paid a lot of lip service to pacifism, but always seemed to end up in bloody situations where he was effectively enabling violence or pushing Daleks out of windows. The new series Doctors aren't all that pacifistic but they have contempt for what they regard as needless or excessive violence.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

...Oh, yes, and the Doctor almost always makes a great show of being anti-military, though the Third Doctor spent years hanging out with an elite United Nations terrestrial-defense squad anyway, carping at them the whole time.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I'm not familiar with these characters--but is this the Holy Fool, or something close to it?

[kate_nepveu]

. . . maybe. Looking at the link below, it might work, though it's only one aspect if so.

[snarp]

Rurouni Kenshin and Xuanzang (original Sanzo)?

[kate_nepveu]

Not familiar with either, sorry, though I had the vague impression that Rurouni Kenshin was more serious.

Is he the kind of person to whom someone would say,

"Honestly, you're the craziest thing I ever saw."

And get the response,

"You mean you never saw one of those guys who ties up balloons into the shapes of animals?"

[snarp]

Kenshin is exaggeratedly polite and humble in ways that other characters find humorous and\or irritating, but it isn't intentional on his part - I don't think he ever makes a joke on purpose. Though I wouldn't say the manga's all that much more serious than Trigun (not having seen either anime, and having read only a little of the Trigun manga...), if that's important.

I guess Xuanzang is probably more of the Loser Who Is Constantly Being Involved In Huge Things type than what you're describing.

[kate_nepveu]

I'm not doing a good job with this, then, because neither Trent nor Vash are losers; goofy, yes, but with a surprising core of competence and passion. It's the contrast there, and the pacifism, that interests me.

[snarp]

No, I get that, I'm just bad at sentence structure. I was saying that Xuanzang doesn't count because he doesn't actually stick to his principles very well, and is fairly incompetent.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

The thought that gives me is that Trent is only a short step sideways from Jame of the Kencyrath. I'm not sure that goes anywhere, though.

[kate_nepveu]

Obviously it's been too long since I read the first of those. Which is to say that I don't know either.

[orzelc.livejournal.com]

The step is smaller from Jame to Vash. Trent isn't quite as destructive.

[kate_nepveu]

orzelc's comment makes me realize that 1) I need to finally get around to writing up a spoiler-free rec of _Trigun_ (where Vash comes from) and 2) see if I can get it to you in any format you can view, if it sounds interesting.

[paoconnell.livejournal.com]

Very common.

Coyote in lots of Indian stories. Bugs Bunny and Roadrunner in the cartoons. Jhary a' Conel in Moorcock's Eternal Champion series. Andy Devine, Pat Buttram and other comedic sidekicks in the old western and adventure serial movies. All of the Marx brothers, especially Harpo. As far as that's concerned, Curly in the Three Stooges. Mat Cauthon early in Wheel of Time, until he gets his head filled with memories of battles by the 'finn and becomes a general.

Lots of similar characters listed here, in case you haven't found it yet:

http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/holy_fool.php

[leighdb.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't describe Coyote, Bugs Bunny, Roadrunner, or even Curly as "pacifist", though.

[paoconnell.livejournal.com]

"Coyote" is not Wile E--he's the Trickster in many Indian tribes, much like Loki.

Bugs often sets things up in improbable ways so that Elmer does it to himself.

Wile E Coyote is often done in by his own devices, but not until Roadrunner shows up.

Curly is often the brunt of Moe's meanness, until Moe does it to himself again.

[kate_nepveu]

Yeah, pacifism is really really important to those characters. Bugs Bunny doesn't kill people only because he's in a cartoon. And they're not in themselves capricious, really.

Tom Bombadil might not be a bad example, though. Must chew on that.

[larabeaton.livejournal.com]

I always lump Trent in with Miles Vorkosigan. They both look at seemingly hopeless situations in a sideways manner and come up with unimaginable solutions to them.

[larabeaton.livejournal.com]

Althought Miles does fail the "pacifist" portion of the requirement.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

That was why I wasn't counting Harry Dresden, either, though he does share the "The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault" nature.

[kate_nepveu]

"The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault"

Nice--his phrase or yours?

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

His: it's the first line of Blood Rites.

[kate_nepveu]

Alas, yes.

(Improvisional intelligence is a characteristic of both, but it's not that uncommon in fiction, really.)

[treetelling.livejournal.com]

Kai Lung, maybe? Possibly not goofy-seeming enough. Ooh, I know! Fraser from Due South!

[kate_nepveu]

I'm not that familiar with either, but I know a little about _Due South_ and that seems to match my understanding.

[xeger.livejournal.com]

I'd think of the archetype as the trickster myself - and while the trickster archetype isn't what I'd necessarily think of as a pacifist, it'll reliably favour tricks over violence as an answer to whatever issues come up (and make issues if it's bored, of course... just to see ... )

[kate_nepveu]

There is definitely some trickster in Trent--less, I think, in Vash--but for them it's far stronger than *favoring* non-violence over violence. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting variation.

Manifestations

[(Anonymous)]

Other characters that manifest the quality/qualities of the goofy pacifist...How about the Stainless Steel Rat, James Bolivar diGriz? He seems to want to do not harm and still be a happy-go-lucky (and free) fellow in the end.