Saiyuki vol. 3: minor question

[kate_nepveu]

Is this some kind of bizarre typo, or a deliberate mis-remembering in flashback? On page 59 (in the Tokyopop version), Hakkai tells a not-sleeping Sanzo,

"I'd rather we all didn't suffer further."

On page 78, Sanzo flashes back to three things said by the others in the group before he left; the first one he remembers is Hakkai saying,

"I'd rather suffer further."

Goku's flashback isn't exact either, but as best I can tell, the original phrase of Hakkai's would suit the scene better. Mind you, I'm not at all sure I'm properly understanding Sanzo's thinking here and before: he didn't want Rikudo to remind him of his emotional scars, so he dove in front of a physical attack? Because . . . if he was dead, he wouldn't feel emotions?

Is this one of those cultural things, like Hero, or am I misreading (though I did go over it several times trying to figure it out)?

(Also, GIP.)

Comments

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Re: Hakkai: I'm pretty sure the second bit's a typo.

Re: Sanzo: Sanzo, as you will see as you read further, is not always entirely honest with himself about his own motivations.

Re: GIP: My Goku icon thinks your Sanzo icon is pretty!

[kate_nepveu]

Thank you, I was debating whether to dl a scanlation of vol. 3 to check and decided that was silly.

Ye-es, Sanzo I'm sure is a master of deception, self- and otherwise, but that had the feel of something the author wanted to convey as truth, because it fit in with the thematic framework that's being built up about living for yourself, non-attachment, etc. (I'm up through vol. 5 now, and Hakkai's backstory has a lot of this.)

I don't know if freely-chosen friendship and loyalty is a subset of living for yourself, though. That is, is Buddhism that complicated, or are they just not any good at it? =>

I went on a big long hunt for a good Sanzo-with-gun icon--because if you're going to have a Sanzo icon, it's got to be with a gun. I grabbed this one on the way, which I'm just waiting for an opportunity to use because I am overly amused at my own cleverness.

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Well, I am not an expert on Buddhism, but from what I understand it is indeed that complicated. Or, at least, it can be. The point of the "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha" koan is that one should free oneself from received doctrine and preconceptions. Everyone must find his own route to enlightenment, and relying on doctrine is an impediment, because some other guy's path is not necessarily your path. So, Sanzo's dogmatic attachment to his idea of "non-attachment" is Ironic with a capital "I."

This question does become an important plot point; I won't go into detail though 'cause I don't want to spoil anything.

[kate_nepveu]

Hmmm. Things to chew on, thank you very much.

[kate_nepveu]

Oh, and I have a totally stupid question that maybe you'll know the answer to:

Cho Hakkai, Sha Gojyo, etc. Are those names in Western order or not?

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Eastern order. Cho & Sha are surnames, Hakkai & Gojyo are their given names. ("Genjyo Sanzo" is different: Genjyo is his given name, Sanzo is his title. No surname.)

[kate_nepveu]

Thank you, that was bothering me and I couldn't figure out an easy way to tell.

I do think it a bit odd that they call him by his title, but obviously I know nothing about this.

[signy1.livejournal.com]

If it's an error, they seem to have made the same mistake in the anime. I don't recall the exact subtitle wording, and I don't speak Japanese, but Hakkai clearly says that he'd rather avoid further suffering and Sanzo clearly remembers him as saying that further suffering is just fine with him.

I assumed that Sanzo is simply very good at editing reality to suit his needs, because making the same dumb mistake in two different media using two different translation teams and getting said error past two different editorial staffs is too sad for words.

[kate_nepveu]

Thank you, that's fascinating. When I do the vols. 1-9 re-read I'll be paying more attention to the ways Sanzo lies to himself, among many other things.

What's your opinion of the anime? I've heard one very strong negative opinion about it, and not much else, but I haven't gone looking for reviews.

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for signy1, but IMO the anime[1] is not particularly good, either as a work of animation or as an adaptation of the manga. The essential goodness of the story and the characters manages to make itself felt, but the original-to-anime plots range from decent fanfic-quality to really, really bad fanfic-quality. While I was watching it, I kept finding myself thinking, "No, no, Sanzo would never do that. And Kougaiji would CERTAINLY never do that! And why is Gojyo's hair fuchsia?" As I recently remarked to stormfeather, I think the anime was produced for a markedly younger and more male audience than Minekura is writing for, and that probably has a fair amount to do with the things I dislike about it. (That being said, I am rather fond of the original-to-anime episode with the horde of monkeys. 'Cause, you know, monkeys.)

And my goodness, but you've gone nuts with the icons, haven't you? ;)

[1] I have only watched the first two seasons; ISTR reading somewhere that a different animation studio did the second two seasons, so it might be better. From the screencaps I've seen, the artwork is *definitely* better.

[kate_nepveu]

Fuchsia hair would be bad, yes. Thanks for the information, I'll probably pass on the anime.

And it's only three icons! The first was because I needed a Hakkai icon to represent _Saiyuki_, and there was a 150x150 picture right there on Minekura's site. Then I went looking for a good Sanzo-with-gun picture because it's just so *characteristic* and I needed a good cranky icon.

Okay, I found the b&w Hakkai icon in my search and couldn't resist. But that's not going nuts! I mean, look at it.

I am completely unsurprised by your icon, btw. =>

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Mind you, I have nothing against fuchsia hair in the abstract, but in this case, it really kills the mood in the bits where they talk about his hair being "red as blood."

And it's only three icons!

Hee. I'm just jealous of your awesome "Sanzo's gonna blow your head off" picture (wish I'd thought of it first). I know how hard it is to resist the pretty artwork...

I am completely unsurprised by your icon

Well, you know how I love a good villain, so I'm not surprised you're unsurprised! :)

[kate_nepveu]

Especially _that_ kind of villain.

Also, there's no reason you can't have the pretty Sanzo with a gun icon; I didn't make it, and psychodragon82, who did, allows use as long as you don't credit. You could add text to it--I've seen this picture with "make my day" added by someone else; psychodragon82 also has a one with "I'd rather die than give you control", which is so *extremely* Sanzo, though not quite my thing, icon-wise.

*is good and does not start reading scans of _Reload_ or _Gaiden_ when she has So Much Work to do tonight*

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right. I do have an Evil Mastermind fetish.

The thing with icons is: I have this unreasonable need to roll my own and, to be somewhat original. So, I can't just go copy one somebody else made.

And, while I won't encourage you to neglect your work, I do recommend reading _Gaiden_ sooner rather than later, even though you can only do it via scans; it lends a whole 'nother perspective to the events of the main story. (And if you like Hakkai, you'll love his past-life self.)

[kate_nepveu]

My current plan, which may be shot to hell by very recent events, is: make it through July 1 which is when all this shit is due. Re-read all of _Saiyuki_ for a whopping big essay, or maybe just notes, culminating in the release of the Tokyopop vol. 9. Read _Gaiden_ while waiting for the release of _Reload_ vol. 1 by Tokyopop, then read the scans of 2-4. Pout about the Tokyopop release of vol. 2 not being until December.

[signy1.livejournal.com]

I'm a very bad person to ask about the anime, mostly because I have seen almost none of it. I'm playing catchup now, but I get this funny glazed look in my eyes when anyone asks much past volume four, and some of the impressions I've picked up from other people's opinions and/or fic are odd in the extreme.

That said, I'll agree that some of what was aired seems pure filler, and less than terrific even by filler standards. But fluff episodes aside, I like the sound of the Japanese cast even when I have no clue what they're saying, I think the animation is quite pretty, and even the theme music is catchy. Don't know how much more I can ask from a series the important bits of which I'd repeatedly read before I ever saw them onscreen. And I am quite fond of the non-filler plot and all of the characters.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks for the comments! They were helpful.

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

This got me curious, so I dug out the DVD and watched that episode; in the anime translations (both dub and subtitled) Hakkai says the same thing in the original scene and in the flashback: "I don't want us to have matching scars." (A bit of foreshadowing there!) I don't know Japanese either, so I have no idea what they're *actually* saying, mind.

I could be totally mistaken, but

[batwrangler.livejournal.com]

My volume 3 finally arrived, and I read that scene as Sanzo remembering Hakkai's "I don't want us all to suffer any further," and replying that he (Sanzo) *did* want to suffer more, either in reparition for his failure to save his master, or simply in terms of "all life is suffering, but I still want to live." Especially as it's part of Sanzo's resolution not to die saving someone, because the life of the saved survivor is so painful afterward.

Re: I could be totally mistaken, but

[kate_nepveu]

Hmmm, interesting. I think I disagree, as all the rest of the flashbacks seemed to be of comments by others, not replies to them; and if it were a Sanzo comment, I'd expect it to be not in a speech balloon.

The extent to which Sanzo is seeking out suffering as punishment, though . . . that I shall have to ponder.