On asking to touch the breasts of a stranger

[kate_nepveu]

If you are a stranger, especially a man, perhaps especially in a group of other strangers who are men, and you come up to me and say, "You're very beautiful. I'd like to touch your breasts. Would you mind if I did?":

You will put me in fear.

Because you could be someone who will go away quietly if I say no (which I will). You could be the exiled gay prince of Farlandia, cursed to wander this Earth looking for the key to his return that can only be revealed by touching the breast of a willing stranger, and who isn't enjoying this at all. You could, in short, not be a danger to me.

But how am I supposed to know that?

How am I supposed to distinguish you from the person who says he's really just whatever, but is actually going to put emotional pressure on me, or make a scene, or stalk me, or rape me?

I can't. Because that would require a level of discernment and of trust that is not possible, by definition, in my dealings with a stranger.

And therefore, if you ask to touch my breasts, you will frighten me.

If your goal is actually to make a better world, I suggest that you use a method that doesn't involve putting women in fear.

(Also, I find it hard to believe you can create "the kind of world where [people can] say, 'Wow, I'd like to touch your breasts,' and people would understand that it's not a way of reducing you to a set of nipples and ignoring the rest of you, but rather a way of saying that I may not yet know your mind, but your body is beautiful," by going up to women, touching their breasts, and then going away. Among many, many other problems that are noted in the comments to the original. But that's secondary to my main point here.)

Comments

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Hugging is not gender dependent.

(I personally would be wearing the big red No sticker on my forehead, but I'm not a big hugger/huggee in real life).

I would find it irritating, I think, because I like having personal space--but unless the contest clearly defined hugs as "hugging only women" or "Hugging only people with breasts", it wouldn't be as off-putting.

[kate_nepveu]

Very true. But because of what desdenova has said in this thread, and the general problem of how women's personal space and bodies are treated, I think it's still something that could disproportionately affect women and thus is a reasonable thing to ask in light of the original post.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Very true. But because of what desdenova has said in this thread, and the general problem of how women's personal space and bodies are treated, I think it's still something that could disproportionately affect women and thus is a reasonable thing to ask in light of the original post.

Oh, I think it's more than reasonable -- I was just trying to point out that there were probably reasons why they didn't find it as instantly creepy or disturbing.

[montoya.livejournal.com]

It's precisely because it's not as instantly creepy that it's more insidiously creepy. Everyone can agree that, duh, obviously groping is an inappropriate and unwanted intimacy, but hugging seems to many people to be so innocuous and friendly and whatever that it doesn't raise the same hackles.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

It's precisely because it's not as instantly creepy that it's more insidiously creepy. Everyone can agree that, duh, obviously groping is an inappropriate and unwanted intimacy, but hugging seems to many people to be so innocuous and friendly and whatever that it doesn't raise the same hackles.

Speaking as a non-hugger, and someone who would not engage in hugging contests or group hugs in any case, I want to gently point out that there's probably a reason that hugging seems to be so innocuous to so many people.

I absolutely agree, however, that for some people it's an unwanted or inappropriate intimacy (see me). However, I've had unknown toddlers blow their noses in my skirts before, and did not find that offensive; part of the reaction I have is based, in part, on obvious agenda.

[kate_nepveu]

I see what you mean. Context matters a lot. And also--not that I think you are disputing this--allowing people to act on their own instincts about what agendas are behind people's attempts at hugging.