research reading suggestions

[kate_nepveu]

Hello DW,

I have things to say! About Readercon and Welcome to Night Vale and four versions of "Atlantic City" and the Hugo & Campbell nominees and the kids and traveling to England and Ireland next month, yikes . . . but I came home from Readercon to find that work had exploded in several different directions. So I will clear one thing off my queue with a short request for assistance, and hope to catch up with other things later.

In a couple months, I am going to re-read Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell for Tor.com for the lead-up to the BBC series (release date as yet unannounced, but probably near the end of 2014). (I will also re-read The Ladies of Grace Adieu.) Sometime after I finish that, I will also re-read the Temeraire series for the lead-up to the release of the final book. [*]

I have two books on the Napoleonic Wars already: The Napoleonic Wars: A Very Short Introduction, by Mike Rapport, which I have just started and am appreciating so far, and Napoleon's Wars: An International History, 1803-1815, by Charles Esdaile. I expect these will suffice for my military history needs for JS&MN, but if you have very strong feelings about this topic, feel free (after you see the note below).

The next thing I know that I need is a social history of the UK that includes this time period, to give me context on JS&MN's handling of class, gender, nationality, and race. Do you all have any suggestions?

And what else do I need that I don't know I need? I'm going to have to go much wider on the history, military and otherwise, for Temeraire, but let's put that aside for the moment because it's further away. Is there history or literature or anything that JS&MN is engaging with, that your knowledge of enhanced your appreciation of the book? What is it, and what should I read to get up to speed on it, if possible?

(Note: I am way more likely to follow up on your suggestion if you explain why it is relevant specifically to JS&MN and provide enough information for me to find the work you are suggesting. And while I can probably get many academic works via Chad, it would be extra-useful for you to indicate how accessible an academic work is to someone not part of academia, i.e., me.)

[*] While I did The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit chapter-by-chapter, JS&MN is 69 chapters long, and the Temeraire series is eight novels long, so, uh, no. I've very carefully divided JS&MN up into 13 parts of approximately equal length that do not violate chapter or volume boundaries—seriously, a spreadsheet was involved, it was kind of ridiculous—and will be using the handy three-volume structure to divide up each Temeraire book.

I am very excited about these projects, so thanks for helping me get started!

(PS: those of you who prompted me to pitch these forthcoming re-read series, back in the day, by noting the relative lack of female authors in Tor.com's rereads may be interested in today's launch of Judith Tarr re-reading Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince trilogy.)

Comments

[rushthatspeaks]

You've read Lud-in-the-Mist, yes? As The Only Other Work In That Genre (I am not counting Gaiman's Stardust, it is a flat-out Lud-in-the-Mist copy homage, he says so in the foreword) and Susannah Clarke's principal literary model, it's a good book to keep in mind with JS&MN.

[kate_nepveu]

Ahh, that was the thing I was thinking of, thank you! No, I haven't, and I knew there was something.

[desperance]

Ooh, I did not know the BBC was taking JS&MN. That should be fun. (And yay for Susanna.)

If you don't, I am not suggesting that you read them, because twenty books: but if you have a familiarity with the Aubrey/Maturin series, that might serve you well with either project (tho' I cannot say how the Novik series holds up in any way; I read the first and felt that was enough). Also, of course, if you don't, then - when you have time, he said, with appropriate hollow laughter - the A/M books are a delight to become familiar with.

[kate_nepveu]

I have read all of them and loved the first 18. I'm going to have a terrible time fighting off the urge to re-read them during this project, because just reading about the places involved in the leadup to Napoleon starting his attempt to conquer everything in sight, not even at 1800 yet, is making me terribly nostalgic for them.

(There definitely some significant comparison points, unsurprising as the Temeraire books started as an Aubrey-Maturin AU and then took on their own life.)

[desperance]

Hah. I did not know that about the Temeraires (when people talk about 'em in terms of other work, they tend to say Hornblower instead, I find: which might seem more appropriate, though I do think that either comparison does not play to the credit of Temeraire).

[kate_nepveu]

I haven't read Hornblower either! I don't know what you found sufficient about Temeraire, but the thing that most delights me is the working-out of "everyone except Australia has air power" in terms of the inequities of 1800s geopolitics, which is pretty much not apparent from the first book, and certainly I'm not recommending you read something you disliked.

[desperance]

Hownblower I think is worth your time; I hope so, at least. (These days, my need for Napoleonic navy stories is entirely met by O'Brian; but the need was there before, so of course I found Hornblower first, and loved them when I was young.)

I should probably try Temeraire again, and go further than the one book now that there's a series. My first feeling was that it was a bright notion - Hornblower with dragons! - poorly developed: as though that was the only notion that she had, and it really wasn't enough. I wanted deeper evidence of worldbuilding, how the fact of dragons would have changed the world, rather than just skinning it over with air power.

[kate_nepveu]

Well, you might as well wait now until it's done and see if it sticks the landing, you know? Or you can read my summaries next year as I go and see what you think about the worldbuilding. =>

[orzelc]

I had the same problem with the worldbuilding (to be fair, I have this issue with alternate history in general), and later books didn't really address it. They're good fun when there's enough action taking place to keep everything moving briskly, but when the plot slows down enough that I have to think about the background, I get thrown out of the story by a chain of "But if... that doesn't make any sense..."

This is not a widely shared opinion, and the later books do visit a wider range of places that are changed much more significantly by the presence of dragons. To me, that just highlights the problems with the lack of changes in Britain, but again, not a widely shared opinion.

[kate_nepveu]

Yeah, the author did that on purpose, to ease people into the alternate history by having Britain's changes be minimal, and it's a risky choice.

[applegnat]

The next thing I know that I need is a social history of the UK that includes this time period, to give me context on JS&MN's handling of class, gender, nationality, and race. Do you all have any suggestions?

Hello! If you haven't read Linda Colley's Britons, it looks at some of these issues quite in detail.

[kate_nepveu]

Interesting, thanks. But a glance at Wikipedia and the summary suggests to me that it doesn't have much to say about Africans in the UK; is that correct, so that I'd have to supplement my reading on that point?

[qian]

It's very good, though, and I was coming here to recommend it (I read it on applegnat's recommendation!). It doesn't talk much about Africans in Briton IIRC, for that perhaps Gretchen Gerzina's Black England: Life Before Emancipation? It covers a slightly earlier period but I think does dip into the early 1800s.

(I've also got Staying Power, but it's huge -- not sure you'll have enough time to read that before your reread!)

[applegnat]

Wow, definitely feeling like a Colley evangelist now -- but it seemed like the perfect fit for this period! You're both right, as far as I remember: it doesn't say much about Africans in the UK, and I can't recall anything I may have read that touches on the subject in this time period, sorry.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks--_Staying Power_ might be good since I could always skim the non-relevant time periods.

[qian]

*nods* All I'd add is Gretchen Gerzina is a woman of colour and Peter Fryer is white. Which matters to me in this sort of context. That said, I understand Fryer's is a seminal work, and I think Gerzina's book actually refers to it.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks again!

[jorriespencer]

I have no useful advice, but thank you for reminding me that BBC is making this series. Reading your post and these comments is super interesting. I loved JS&MN. I am tempted to do a reread…

[kate_nepveu]

Read along with me in late September!

[auriaephiala]

I first "read" JS&MN as an audiobook, narrated by Simon Prebble. I found it particularly interesting that way. You might listening to it as a reread to get a new angle.

[kate_nepveu]

Can't; own it, tried it, but a) the narrator is female, damn it and b) the way it handled the footnotes didn't work for me. Glad it worked for you, though.

[cofax7]

Female, hmm. I hadn't to put a gender on the narrator, although I used to think of the novel as the bastard child of Austen and Gaskell, fostered by Patricia McKillip (and with Pterry as a godparent, because of the footnotes).

[sara]

I can honestly say it had never occurred to me that the narrator was female. But then I thought there were problems with the way the book dealt with women; I sort of figured Ladies of Grace was Clarke getting to the end of JS&MN and realizing she'd written what, eight hundred pages and there weren't any women in England with any agency.

Which, while it does indeed create an unreal and fantastic nation unlike the England we know, is perhaps not ideal.

(I do quite like JS&MN, don't get me wrong. I think it is one of the very few fantasies where the elves are suitably horrible. And it's probably been almost ten years since I read it, so I might assess it differently now.)

[kate_nepveu]

My feelings on that are complicated and will be something I'll be taking a hard look at.

[kate_nepveu]

Start of chapter 9:

"IT HAS BEEN remarked (by a lady infinitely cleverer than the present author) how kindly disposed the world in general feels to young people who either die or marry."

[soon_lee]

Nothing useful to contribute but wanted to say that I am looking forward to the readings.

The Hornblower books are clearly in the same lineage as the Temeraire books sharing the same Napoleanic naval setting.

[damerell]

Although Hornblower's The Man Alone; he's an 18th century naval captain on detached duty _because_ he's The Man Alone, and not vice versa. Laurence, like Aubrey, isn't alone.

Simond, "Journal of a Tour and Residence in Great Britain" is on Gutenberg or reprinted as "An American In Regency England", and I found it to be quite interesting reading; the author was in the country in 1810-1811.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks, that sounds very interesting.

[sartorias]

If you're going to read only one book, I would recommend THE BIRTH OF THE MODERN by Paul Johnson.

[kate_nepveu]

. . . but it's a thousand pages long (she says, blankly).

[sartorias]

Well, if you want a serious look at that time, including movements of people and demographics other than the aristocrats, and so forth . . . (It's really absorbing--I bought it to read on the train some years back and just fell right into it.)

[kate_nepveu]

But Temeraire all takes place before the end of the Napleonic Wars and 2/3 of _JS&MN_ does too. And, a thousand pages long.

I mean, thank you and I'll keep it in mind, but it seems unlikely to be suited for my needs.

[sartorias]

Most of the book is about the Napoleonic period. Movement of people, music, publishing, trade laws, roads and carriage problems, city life, war and its effect, England in relation to the continent and to the world--it really does cover spang what you are looking for. But yeah, it is a major investment of time. And while it might complement the Clarke, I think reading it would show the weak seams in the Temeraire series.

[kate_nepveu]

Well, okay, but then it really shouldn't have a title that says "1815-1830" . . .

Sorry. I am very grumpy today for entirely unrelated reasons. I will look further at reviews.

[sartorias]

Yeah, that is the focus, but he keeps going back to furnish background.

The opening chaps give a nifty précis of Napoleon's wars.

[sartorias]

I snagged on "social history" in the post; PaulJohnson also wrote a book on Napoleon which is narrower in focus. It's problematical, but then any single book is going to be problematical, most being either too general (and too reliant on secondary sources) or just excuses for more about Napoleon' sex life, etc.

Re JS&MN I would recommend Stella Tillyard's ARISTOCRATS. Eminently readable, I think would inform JS&MN in some interesting ways.

[kate_nepveu]

Interesting, thanks. Do you see the relevance of Aristocrats as the general social history or do you see closer links?

[sartorias]

Well, Tillyard's work is a biography of the three Lennox sisters (1740-1832) but they were right in the middle of the life that I recollect SC drawing on for her novel. You'll get a close look at court life, and political dealings with Napoleon's government, etc in it. Immensely readable.

[rymenhild]

Is it worth reading Dragon Prince? I fell hard for the Exiles books in my teens and, because I never forgave Rawn for not finishing the series, never went back to see what else she'd written.

Maybe I'll try reading JS&MN again. I've tried several times but always bounce off a few chapters in; I think I never figured out why I should care about the characters.

[kate_nepveu]

I read Dragon Prince when I was a kid and remember nothing of it, so I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.

Re: JS&MN, Doris Egan had an interesting essay on its structure and its character presentation that I found in my preliminary Googling that might interest you.

[rymenhild]

That is in fact a very interesting essay. It rather confirms my feelings about JS&MN; I didn't have characters to latch on to, and in the absence of those characters, didn't really latch on to the world either. I find myself comparing JS&MN with Katherine Addison's The Goblin Emperor, which also has some wonderful artifice in the worldbuilding. In GE, though, I bonded with the protagonist Maia at once, and could learn to love the world through his eyes.

[kate_nepveu]

I loved the prose in _JS&NM_ and liked a number of the characters well enough to keep me going until plot developed, but it's a fair point.