miscellany

[kate_nepveu]

An extremely mixed bag, today:

Of the recent attempts at suppressing discussions of racism that I'm aware of, I think literally and repeatedly ripping down an entire protest display takes the cake. The poison-filled cake of racism, privilege, and oppression, that is. (This was a student protest at the University of Minnesota Twin-Cities Dance Program, ripped down by other students, and the university administration's response was to call the destruction "the changes made by another group of individuals." And . . . nothing else. That would be the icing on this particular cake.)

(Edit: okay, my metaphor got away from me. The protest is actually about pervasive institutional problems, in which context the administration's non-response is more than just icing. But the ripping down (because it will help the discussion! Um, wtf, over?) just infuriates me.)

sparkymonster has a helpful summary with more. Support the students through their petition, passing the word about the protest, or joining this Facebook group.

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Baby sloth!

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tool_of_satan has an interesting thought on what gives LotR its quasi-mythic feel in this thread on the non-European epic fantasy post:

This is a complicated question, but I think part of the answer is Tolkien's use of deep time. Things that happened thousands of years ago have direct consequences that the characters need to deal with, and there are people around who were actually alive back then, mixing with the mortals. Furthermore, we (and the hobbits) are told much less than everything about the ancient people and events - the critical bits, of course, and there are allusions to many other things, but one ends up feeling there are many other stories that could be told, which I think helps make the ones that are told feel more real. (I haven't read the Silmarillion or any of the other posthumous volumes, I should note.)

(Underlined emphasis mine.)

For me, I suspect this may be a matter of the golden age being twelve: it's certainly de rigueur these days for epic fantasies to build or at least suggest elaborate historical and mythological backstories for their worlds, and I mostly feel like they're, well, there because they're de rigueur, and I'm not sure the underlined detail of the execution is enough to make the difference. But I'm also not very interested in epic fantasies now, so my reactions might have been different, back in the day.

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There's a reboot of the Fullmetal Alchemist anime and you can watch it free and legally, with official subtitles, at Funimation. (I recommend a downloader like Orbit, because the streaming is very rocky.) I've been watching but don't really have an opinion yet; it's based closely on the manga which I've been reading, so it's familiar enough that I don't know how it'd look to a new person or in comparison to the first anime. Well, okay, the first episode was filler and kinda dumb, but the manga rocks so I have hopes.

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Songs that make me happy lately: "Toe Jam," by the BPA featuring Dizzee Rascal & David Byrne (ETA: YouTube video of version we actually like; NSFW (but rather clever) for happy dancing naked people with black bars over women's breasts & people's pubic areas); and "Say Hey (I Love You)" by Michael Franti and Spearhead (choose song title in sidebar).

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I've also watched the pilot of Leverage and enjoyed it. I am morally certain that it was pitched as "Ocean's Eleven meets Robin Hood," and indeed the wish-fulfillment is blatant, but my love for capers is fierce, and I suspect that these lawless elites aren't going to be violent, which makes it easier for me to take. Note that the aired order is not the intended order; see this blog post from the creator for the proper order ('ware spoilers after that in the post).

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Two Dreamwidth invite codes; comment if you want one; if necessary, will pick at random and ask for e-mail.

(Decided against crossposting (and asking people to comment only there) until a few more wrinkles are ironed out. Am filtering out people here who are fully cross-posting, and have adjusted LJ "friends" list to try and match DW access/subscribe lists. Now going to look for missing subject pronouns. Goodnight, everybody.)

Comments

[prince-eric.livejournal.com]

I'll speak up for the Dreamwidth invite, if they're still around.

[kate_nepveu]

Sent!

[montoya.livejournal.com]

I would have underlined "are told much less than everything," because that to me is the key difference. If you read most modern epic fantasies, it feels like you know everything that's "real." All the stuff that's outside the immediate story need isn't real, it's just amorphous half-formed ideas that haven't congealed to anything solid yet.

Jo Walton's Bujold posts on tor.com talked about how Bujold manages to coalesce the amorphous in a way that makes it seem like it was there all the time. Most epic fantasists don't have this skill, and I'd argue that even Bujold's facility with that can't match the depth of Tolkien's world, where centuries of stuff actually happened even if the camera never points that way.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

That is the key difference to me as well. There are too many books where everything and everyone that's mentioned ends up being important to the plot. Which not only does not end up feeling Tolkienesque, but is not even realistic.

However, having ancient characters is handy. If events from thousands of years ago are critically relevant today, how are the regular mortal characters supposed to know anything about them? If the events and their ramifications are common knowledge, someone would presumably have done whatever it is that should or should not be done years ago. If they're not, then either there needs to be a group dedicated to preserving the secret knowledge over the years (which is hokey and often implausible), or the characters need enough hints to do some serious research, and then have enough documentation available to find the answers they need - which again begs the question of, why didn't someone else do the research long ago?

Tolkien actually uses the latter scenario, but makes it plausible because he has an ancient character (Gandalf) who would be one of the very few people able to do the necessary research (as I recall it).

[orzelc.livejournal.com]

Jo Walton's Bujold posts on tor.com talked about how Bujold manages to coalesce the amorphous in a way that makes it seem like it was there all the time. Most epic fantasists don't have this skill, and I'd argue that even Bujold's facility with that can't match the depth of Tolkien's world, where centuries of stuff actually happened even if the camera never points that way.

My feeling is that Bujold doesn't even do it that well. That's the key failing of her books, for me-- in both the Vorkosigan books and the Chalion series, I've had whole books robbed of suspense by the too-obvious introduction of a new element early on that gave the whole plot away.

[readinggeek451]

If I remember the review correctly, Walton was talking about the way Bujold takes a background detail barely mentioned in one book and expands it in another. She gave several examples.

[kgbooklog.livejournal.com]

Things that happened thousands of years ago have direct consequences that the characters need to deal with, and there are people around who were actually alive back then, mixing with the mortals.

Steven Erikson does this too (the third book has a prologue set three hundred thousand years before the main events of the series, and yes, some of the characters there are still around (one is even still alive)); it's one of the reasons I say he's truly following in Tolkien's footsteps instead of just imitating him. His prose isn't as good (especially in the first book) and he has a terrible ear for names (be glad there are no audiobooks), but the story he's telling is amazingly huge and complex, even compared to Jordan and Martin.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

Brust works on a similar timescale, but I wouldn't call what he's doing (or rather, any of the things he's doing) epic fantasy. Although, if all of the 250,000-year-old guns on the walls actually get fired, it might end up as one.

[kate_nepveu]

Or if Vlad ends up changing the world on a large scale.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

Yes, if that is enough to make it epic - which gets us back to the question of how to define "epic fantasy." Large changes to the world I think are required, but if we are using Tolkien as the model (which you were in your original request), then I think more is necessary.

[calimac.livejournal.com]

I tried the Dreamwidth invite instructions you posted a couple weeks ago, but apparently they didn't work. (I say "apparently" because it might have gone to my LJ inbox, and for some reason I can't get in to my LJ inbox.)

Anyway, I'd be happy to take an invite code if one's being offered. Thanks.

[kate_nepveu]

Sent!

[calimac.livejournal.com]

Thank you, but did that go to my personal e-mail account (if so, I haven't gotten it yet) or to my LJ inbox? As I noted, I can't access my LJ inbox.

[kate_nepveu]

To the e-mail on your profile. Ah, but apparently e-mail from DW is being intermittently blocked, so I will resend from my personal account.

[kate_nepveu]

Did you get this? If not, do you get e-mail comment notifications? If so I will post the invite code in a comment to you & then immediately delete it--you'll get it in e-mail but it won't be hanging around publicly tempting other people to use it. =>

[calimac.livejournal.com]

Yes, I did get it in e-mail. Sorry for not replying: I didn't get a chance to actually create my DW account until just now!

[kate_nepveu]

No problem, just checking!

[calimac.livejournal.com]

The reason that deep time concept works for Tolkien is precisely that it's not de rigeur for him. Everything in the deep past that's referred to in LOTR already existed in his Silmarillion legends, with the sole exception of Queen Beruthiel, and he eventually figured out where she came in, too.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

That is an excellent point. However, I think it would be possible for someone to do a reasonably good job of the same thing without writing hundreds or thousands of pages of backstory. Not that I know of an example, mind you.

[calimac.livejournal.com]

I consider the amount of work Tolkien had put into his backstory to be an explanation of why its use in LOTR was not de rigeur for him, not a necessary condition for its not being so. But, of course, it certainly helped.

When Tolkien first submitted the Silmarillion for possible publication, the reply was that it was a source to be drawn on for writing books like LOTR and The Hobbit, rather than a book to be published on its own account.

[hermetic.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking and writing about the erasure of the Native Americans in Wrede's The Thirteenth Child, which I find... problematic, to put it mildly.

I haven't yet read it, and I really don't want to, but I think I'm going to have to, in order to fully engage with what's bothering me about it so much. I've got a post + comments on it over on my LJ if you're interested. It starts off in outrage, and then works toward reasoning out the ethical and moral implications of Wrede's auctorial choice.

I'm still working on it... which is why I should probably read the damn thing.

Oh, and if you do have a spare Dreamwidth code, I'd love to have it.

[kate_nepveu]

Sorry, random picker said the other two askers got it. There's alway http://dw-codesharing.dreamwidth.org/1096.html , or I'll keep offering here.

Wrede context: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=26059

I will probably read your post when *I* read it, thanks.

[kate_nepveu]

Do you still need a Dreamwidth code?

[moony]

Boy loves Leverage. But our current obsession is Fringe. You seen that, yet?

I'm watching the reboot of FMA as well, and while I do hold the original dear, the episode with Shou Tucker and Nina is INFINITELY more creepifying this time around. I was literally shaking at the end. Gnah.

[kate_nepveu]

Nope on _Fringe_; I have really limited time to watch TV and it doesn't sound like my kind of thing.

[sargent.livejournal.com]

I've also watched the pilot of Leverage and enjoyed it. I am morally certain that it was pitched as "Ocean's Eleven meets Robin Hood," and indeed the wish-fulfillment is blatant, but my love for capers is fierce, and I suspect that these lawless elites aren't going to be violent, which makes it easier for me to take.

Eliot is occasionally violent, but it's not the main driver of the show. What I found interesting is how, as the series progressed, the characters' failings drove large parts of the plot.

[kate_nepveu]

That's good. I squeezed in the second episode in bits here & there and thought it was somewhat weak, but I'll keep watching.

[sargent.livejournal.com]

Overall I felt like it sagged in the early-middle, then really began picking up towards the end of the season.

[kate_nepveu]

Useful to know, thanks.

[orzelc.livejournal.com]

Just a small clarification: The version of "Toe Jam" that we have does not, in fact, feature Dizzee Rascal. Which is a good thing, as he's the one doing the godawful rapping halfway through.

I can't find the horrible-rap-free version on Last.fm, though.

[kate_nepveu]

Oh, damn. I didn't listen to the whole thing, obviously.

Video NSFW (but rather clever) for happy dancing naked people with black bars over women's breasts & people's pubic areas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nc8fueg7yQ

[sraun]

iraunink and I did a Leverage marathon last week (12 out of 13 episodes). She'd been watching it, I hadn't - it was fun. If you enjoyed the pilot, I think you'll enjoy the whole series. I don't recall any blood, there were some explosions, Eliot regularly gets to beat up goons bare-handed - that's the violence I remember.

[kate_nepveu]

I was not super-impressed with the second episode, but am looking forward to more character development.

[seawasp]

New FMA is rocky so far. I actually liked the first ep better than the next two, as it introduced more characters and the main plot right away in an interesting fashion.

The Rose/Cornello ep was Just Too Damn Short. There was no real chance for Rose to learn about the Elrics and become connected to them as she was in the original, and Ed comes across as a Total Dick in a way that's extreme even for him.

The Shou Tucker ep was okay, but it needed more stuff in it.

The first main Scar episode rocked, though, especially with the Awesome Wrongness of Armstrong.

[kate_nepveu]

I haven't seen that last one yet. As for Liore, I do remember thinking that Ed came off as a little more arrogant in the opening volume or two of the manga.

I just thought the plan of the filler character in the opening episode was too dumb.

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

BABY SLOTHS!!!

[kate_nepveu]

LOOK AT THAT FACE!!

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

BOX OF BABY SLOTHS!!!

[kate_nepveu]

Sloths like boxes, and like being old enough to be up high in the air.

(Not as cute so no caps, alas, but, sloth inna box.)