Bad Empires in Fantasy

[kate_nepveu]

How common are empires in fantasy that are oppressive or unjust (ETA:) and whose oppressions are a plot concern, but are not run by Evil Deities etc. and do not exist to be the opposition for the protagonist's polity? I'm thinking of David Anthony Durham's Acacia trilogy, a book that's not out yet so I'd prefer to avoid discussing it in case it's a spoiler, and . . . ?

I suspect, not very, as fantasy is well-known for its aristocratic preferences, but I thought I should ask.

Comments

[avram]

Have you read David Abraham's Long Price Quartet? I'm only halfway through the third book, so I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, but his viewpoint nation -- the nominal good guys -- is built on magical slavery, and Abraham has the magical slave characters remind you of how much they hate it in every book. (And there's some other nastiness in the culture too, including regular old non-magical slavery, but also a very nasty succession system for the leaders.)

Now, that's not so much an Evil Empire (or any kind of empire, actually) as a Morally Complex Collection Of City-States, which is one reason I'm liking the series. But the Kainate is clearly set up as the protagonist culture, and the rival Galts (who are militarily aggressive, but don't keep magical slaves) as the antagonists.

[avram]

And immediately after hitting "Post Comment", I look over at my copy of The Price of Spring and see that it's Daniel Abraham, not David.

[kate_nepveu]

Drat those D---- A---- (etc.) names.

[kate_nepveu]

No, it's on my list.

I'm particularly interested in empires, but that sounds like at least an honorable mention, as it were.

[redbird]

That the Galts keep only non-magical slaves isn't really much of a moral point in their favor.

[kate_nepveu]

Oh, hey, I totally misread the import of that modifier . . .

[avram]

I'm actually not entirely certain that the Galts keep slaves. Only a small part of the third book shows us a bit of Galtish culture. There may have been mention in the first book of Galt-owned slaves, but I don't recall.

They do raid and loot other nations, Viking-style, so there's a definite point against them.

[redbird]

They capture, rape, and loot enemy cities, slaughter some of the civilian population, and send the rest back to Galt as slaves.

[rosefox]

All four books are amazing. And given that one character does eventually end up with "Emperor" as his title (to his great disgust), I'd say there is an empire involved.

[avram]

Ah, I haven't gotten there yet. Also, the Khaianate as it exists in the early books is the last remnant of an earlier empire, so maybe that counts.

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

Hrm. I just re-read "Theandra House" in MZB's Darkover series. And the empire is kind of oppressive in that patriarchal way.

[kate_nepveu]

Is that a plot focus? If you can say?

*goes to edit post*

[montoya.livejournal.com]

Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy in kind of complex ways.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks--Chad's told me the plots but they've completely fallen out of my heads, so all I remember is the premise of the first (which is explicitly Dark Lord, yeah?) and that they get more complicated from there.

[skwidly.livejournal.com]

Even in the first one the "Dark Lord" is complicated, but to say more would be spoilery.

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Hm, these cheesy "Codex Alera" books by Jim Butcher that I've been reading are set in a fantasy Roman-ish empire, with slavery & class oppression. The oppression isn't the central plot concern by far, but it's a background concern which plays into several plot developments, and influences how outsiders see the Empire and its citizens.

In Brust's Vlad Taltos series, the Dragaeran Empire's oppression of humans/Easterners and Teckla is a major motivating factor for quite a few plot developments.

That's off the top of my head, will post more if I think of any.

[kate_nepveu]

Taltos, yeah; I forgot it since actual permanent overthrow or massive reform of the Empire is not, I would wager, in the cards. Thanks.

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if "revolution against oppressive empire" is what you're looking for, rather than just depictions thereof, that narrows the field considerably.

[kate_nepveu]

Well, it needn't be _revolution_, exactly--I don't know what's going to happen in the Acacia books, but the "Empire needs massive change" gun is very clearly up on the wall waiting for Act 3.

And just the existence of this flavor of oppressiveness is interesting, but the doing something about it is more so.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

Several of Paula Volsky's books (post-Illusion, obviously) deal with this.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd include Illusion in this as well, as it's the anti-aristocracy, but instead is rule by the Tyranny of the Masses.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks--I haven't read them.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

I really recommend Illusion -- it's a fantastic book.

[kate_nepveu]

It was vaguely on my list for a while, and I may have actually gotten rid of it in our big book purge, but there's always libraries if I'm in the mood for that kind of thing.

[kate_nepveu]

Naomi Novik's Temeraire series, to a lesser degree (the overthrow of the British Empire is not in the cards, I feel fairly safe in venturing, but some of its injustices are explored and addressed).

[nikojen.livejournal.com]

Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire definitely springs to mind. I'm not caught up with the series, but the first four books, at least, deal with one front or another in the empire's expansion efforts.

Carol Berg's Transformation (Book 1 of a trilogy) deals with the friendship between the heir to an evil-ish empire and a slave whose race has been oppressed by that empire.

(Oh, and seconded on the recommendation for Illusion. Loved that book. Though The Wolf of Winter is my favorite Volsky.)

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks! Chad spends the occasional long car ride telling me about the Malazan books, but most of what I retain is cool bits, not the overall structure.

[kgbooklog.livejournal.com]

Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire definitely springs to mind. I'm not caught up with the series, but the first four books, at least, deal with one front or another in the empire's expansion efforts.

But the Malazan Empire is often less oppressive than the nations it's conquering. A more oppressive empire is found in book five, Midnight Tides, which is actually a good place to start the series (set on a different continent and possibly earlier than the previous four).

[izzybelbooks.livejournal.com]

David Anthony Durham's The Other Lands came out on September 15 and I am staying up late nights to read my copy! It's complex, which I like.

[kate_nepveu]

Yes! I was very excited by it, and one of these days when I have time I will write a review of it for Tor.com, honest really truly.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

In Dave Duncan's A Man of His Word I think the Impire more or less qualifies - it keeps slaves (despite this being officially illegal), wants to conquer everyone else for no very good reason, etc. It does not get overthrown or reformed in this book (although I note the post doesn't actually mention this criterion), but it more or less does in the sequel, A Handful of Men (however, it is borderline there based on your other criteria).

[kate_nepveu]

Yeah, that was what I meant by "plot concern," that major changes be at least put on the table, but that was too vague or broad a description.

I have actually read these and they don't feel like what I have in mind, though I enjoyed them.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

Well, another book which you have read and which likely isn't the sort of thing you have in mind is The Sarantine Mosaic, with the invasion of pseudo-Italy being cancelled and all.

I can feel a better answer lurking around the back of my brain...

[kate_nepveu]

It's approaching it, at least--the idea that vioent conquest is bad (duh), though it doesn't question imperialism, err, at all as far as I can remember.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

Well, no, but then everyone in the book is a citizen of an empire or a former empire, so I wouldn't expect them to.

Imperialism is much more of an issue in Tigana, but that's more in the mold of Empire-vs.-protagonists.

How about The Dragon Waiting?

[kate_nepveu]

Doesn't stop the people in the books referenced in the post, which is what interests me about them.

Hmmm. Interesting. Will have to ponder. Thanks!

Delany's *Neveryon* series?

[ed-rex.livejournal.com]

Samuel R. Delany's series beginning with Tales of Neveryon just might be the sort of thing you're looking for.

It's set in time vaguelly around the dawn of civilization and literacy itself and the second book in particular features Gorgic, a former slave, who is involved in a sort of guerrilla effort to end the institution of slavery.

Mind you, Delany being Delany, that's not all the series is about by a long shot: the social relations between men and women, between and within social classes and polymorphously perverse sexuality are also explored. There are also some very (in the final book, make that very !) conscious allegories between the world of Neveryon and our own — or rather, our own world in the 1980s.

It may not be what you're looking for since Delany is also in large part deconstructing fantasy itself, but it nevertheless makes for fascinating reading, especially if you're prepared to have your plot-expectations reversed, ignored and generally toyed with over and over again.

Re: Delany's *Neveryon* series?

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks!

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

The Seanchan empire in the Wheel of Time series would seem to qualify.

[kate_nepveu]

To me that falls under "opposition for the protagonist's polity," but I haven't read the last couple.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

There are hints at least as early as "Lord of Chaos" that the Seanchan are probably going to be more than just opponents, but it does seem (from what I've heard) that it becomes much clearer in "Knife of Dreams" (Book 11).

[kgbooklog.livejournal.com]

It's not quite an empire, but Laurie J. Marks' Elemental Logic series begins with the end of a war of conquest, and does some really interesting things with the consequences. Why haven't you read these yet? (Checking your booklog I see that you did read the first, but haven't gotten to the others yet.) I think you'll like the direction the series takes.

[kate_nepveu]

I'll get there, honest!

[redbird]

Lloyd Alexander's Westmark trilogy comes to mind, though "kingdom" might be closer than "empire."

[kate_nepveu]

Another series I read the first book of and have to get back too . . .

[alumiere.livejournal.com]

i haven't seen storm constantine's wraeththu trilogy or the wraeththu "histories" that run semi-parallel in time (or some of the other works by other authors set in that world)

loads of levels of oppression of too many varieties to mention, but not the typical evil overlords nor evil guys as a challenge for the main characters by any stretch of the imagination (and one evil guy battle is won by sex-magic between two hot hermaphroditic former human men)

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks! I haven't read those.