Bittercon panel: Thieves Guilds and Other Criminal Societies

[kate_nepveu]

Last one; I really hadn't meant to spend my night doing this.

Thieves Guilds and Other Criminal Societies

The Thieves Guild is a common staple in fantasy novels. Terry Pratchett's Discworld books parody it; Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora critiques it; and Steven Brust's Taltos novels examine a more modern Mafia-style version. What's good, bad, interesting, boring, otherwise worth talking about when it comes to this idea?

Comments

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I find the concept of criminals and police not bothering each other so long as the criminals don't overstep certain lines completely plausible, because as far as I could tell, that was going on where I grew up. (Little town in India.) The police were either corrupt or everyone believed they were, but they'd get involved in actual policing if there was a really high-profile or outrageous crime.

That's not a thieves' guild per se, as not all criminals were in the same gang, but it did seem to be the case that the authorities had no particular interest in shutting down the criminals, and were widely believed to get kickbacks from organized crime.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

...and this crosses over with my comment in the "difficult narrative devices thread: actual situations which readers find hard to believe."

[prince-corwin.livejournal.com]

Right, but the notion of the theives' guild always includes, for me, the notion that the authorities will go after non-guild members, or go after members who forget the magical rituals.

Criminal gangs buying parts of law enforcement is somewhat believeable, but it never seems to get handled that way in fantasy books, that I read. Also, just the whole notion that it's a guild with formalities of training, a master and apprentice set-up, etc, lends a bizarre sort of social respectability to the whole thing. I'm sure this started as a sarcastic nudge-nudge wink-wink commentary, but has been too abused in the hands of bad writers for me to get anything out of it at all.

[peter-erwin.livejournal.com]

There were apparently something close to "guilds" for both thieves and beggars in Cairo, at least from the 16th Century on, when the Ottomans introduced the general idea of guilds to regulate city economies. (I don't know how closely these approximated the stereotypical medieval European guild.) From Robert Irwin's delightful The Arabian Nights: A Companion:

"In the Ottoman period (16th to 18th centuries), Egyptian crime was organized and, to some extent at least, placed under state supervision... thieves, prostitutes, entertainers, beggars and cheaters at cards had their recognized guilds. In most Ottoman cities it was possible for the victim of a robbery to go to the commander of the janissary regiment garrissoned in the town and report what had been stolen. The janissary commander would in turn contact the sheikh of the thieves' guild, and the stolen property might be returned -- for a price."

Irwin also mentions the bizarre (if not exactly criminal) "party-crasher" guild: "In medieval Baghdad, gate-crashing was an organized way of making a living, and the professional tufaylis formed a kind of guild under the direction of a sheikh, who each evening would allocated selected dinner parties to his following..."

[kate_nepveu]

That is fascinating, thank you.