two links about heteronormativity

[kate_nepveu]

First: You're Always Coming Out, by thefourthvine.

Coming out is supposed to happen in One Big Moment. Usually your One Big Moment involves coming out to your parents; sometimes, especially in fiction, it's coming out at a press conference or in front of an audience or something. But wherever it happens, the concept is the same: in that moment, your whole life changes. Before, you were closeted and ashamed, and after, you become open and honest. You have chewed your way out of the cocoon of secrecy to emerge as a beautiful gay butterfly!

[ . . . ]

So my One Big Moment was -- not. It was not big. It was not dramatic. It was, to be honest, pretty comical. [ . . . ] It didn't even manage to be a single moment, since I spread it over most of a day.

This was probably much better preparation for the rest of my life than I thought at the time.

Second: untitled post at imreallybad, which is very short, so in full:

bisexual people passing as straight when they’re in a straight relationship is not “passing privilege.” it’s erasure. it’s assimilation.

that’s like saying that femme lesbians have privilege over butch lesbians. invisibility might keep people safer on a micro-level which is fucked up, but it’s all based on people thinking they can tell who’s queer & who’s straight just by looking at them, which is infinitely problematic and painful.

don’t alienate queer people who are assumed to be straight. invisibility is a symptom of hetero-normativity, not a privilege.

With regard to this one: I agree with the first sentence of the last paragraph, but I'm not entirely convinced by the last. Or maybe I'm not thinking of "privilege" in a sufficiently narrow/term-of-art sense. But the day-in, day-out that thefourthvine describes? I'm in a heterosexual relationship, and as a result I don't have to do that.

Don't get me wrong—invisibility sucks! It's why I bothered to come out in the first place! But, seeing those posts in that order . . . I don't know, it just felt like a post I should make.

(And now, having failed to come to a better conclusion, I must take my dull self off to do some dishes and make the kids' lunches. Talk among yourselves, if you like.)

Comments

[princessofgeeks]

This whole thing always make me put my hands in my hair and wonder about what I'm not doing.

I'm probably bisexual, but I only figured that out way after I'd married a man and had kids with him. This marriage looks like it will last. I am utterly fine with that.

So, now what?

I've just kind of reverted to making sure I try to be a supportive ally whenever I can. Because my life entails no risk at all.

Thanks for the thinky.

[tree_and_leaf]

Yeah, this (I don't have kids, but am otherwise in the same position).

[kate_nepveu]

Thinking and listening are useful things no matter what.

[kate_nepveu]

Thinky is good. That's all I was after. This is way too personal to be prescriptive (which is where that big NYT article fell down for me ultimately, those last three paragraphs.)

[lovepeaceohana]

It's got an edge of privilege to be sure, in the legal sense where right now where we live, we were able to get married because my birth certificate says "female" and his says "male" - if both of ours said "female" (or "male" for that matter, which might have been a thing if I'd actually pursued medical transition) we'd, well, be living very different lives. But it's also that invisibility is hugely alienating, particularly when it's of the "oh but you're married to a guy so it doesn't really matter" variety, like, that shit hurts.

[kate_nepveu]

Yes, that sucks, and more so when you layer trans* identities on. I just felt I needed to say that it's complicated.

[recessional]

Generally, if people figure out I'm queer (which they often do as a result of what I write, things I talk about, stuff I hone in on in lectures, whatever), they assume I'm a lesbian. Sometimes I get shit, sometimes I don't, but the shit comes from people I genuinely wouldn't piss on if they were on fire so while it's flak I don't enjoy, it doesn't affect my life that much. Amongst people I'd generally like to share socialization with, my experiences are assumed to be real, my difficulties are assumed to be real and worthy of compassion, and my opinions are considered worth hearing.

When people assume I'm straight, it's pretty much like being in the closet. And about as much fun. And to change that, I have two choices: I can tell them the truth (that I'm bi), or I can half-lie and keep it at "queer", at which point they will assume "lesbian."

When I say I'm bi, my chances of getting a ton of shit go up exponentially. I'm a liar. I'm looking for attention. I'm ruining the cause for real queer people. Anything I say is dismissed: my opinions don't REALLY matter. THE FIRST QUESTION I usually get asked is "so you have a girlfriend?" Suddenly my entire sexual history is open to debate. Eyes get rolled. I often get more shit from monosexually queer people than I do from straight people: they just dismiss me quietly as a girl playing around with things who wants to be "edgy" and "cool", whereas from the first group, I often find myself under attack.

I'm so often so tempted not to tell people I (potentially) like men as well as women. My life is easier if people think I'm a lesbian.

Anecdote is not data. But that's my life.


(NB: I should note that this is primarily in physical space. Fandom sucks less about this stuff in general, in my life-experience.)

[violsva]

When I say I'm bi, my chances of getting a ton of shit go up exponentially.

This has been my experience, and my ex-girlfriend's experience. She said if she told queer people she was pansexual she got less shit, possibly because people didn't have the automatic responses set up, or because, she said, it seems "trendier".

Even with my mental health professionals, who have generally been good about this sort of thing, I get questions about whether my identity changed between breaking up with a man and dating a woman six months later, and this might be causing anxiety. I've been comfortably bi for nearly ten years now. My sexuality is not more of a mental issue for me because it isn't mono.

Also, bi invisibility often means that it's harder to come out to someone new when you have to, and you're less likely to be believed.

[kate_nepveu]

What I said here, and also, re: pansexual: as an anecdote only, no judgment implied, that was one of the reasons I decided I wasn't at this time comfortable with claiming that identity.

[kate_nepveu]

That sucks. I'm sorry.

In saying that bisexuals who can pass have privilege, I was not trying to say that that applies to all bisexuals or that biphobia isn't a thing, and I'm sorry if I did. (If you're using the post as a handy springboard to talk about a related topic, no problem.)

And yeah, the ambiguity of "queer" is why I decided to self-identify as bi, though naturally I reserve the right to change that as time goes on.

[recessional]

Mostly, I think I'm trying to say (badly, because this is one of the few areas in my life that I am actively bitter about) that I only have "passing privilege" when I'm closeted or not out EXPLICITLY to the person in question. Which means that literally every queer person not either a stereotype, bearing a very obvious tattoo/pride paraphernalia or either physically sharing space with their same-sex spouse and/or mentioning them at the time to a stranger, has passing privilege. There is nothing about being in a het relationship that's different for what people will assume about me than when I'm single; when I'm single the "tax laws don't take me into account!" doesn't apply to me, either. (Plus I'm Canadian so it STILL doesn't apply to me even if I were married.) So do I have passing privilege right now? And if so who doesn't?

Which, at that point it . . . .ceases to hold meaning, to me. And "your life isn't as hard because you PASS" or "you could just marry a GUY and you might as well be straight anyway" etc (not to mention "you're with a guy so you're a liar/proof that all "bi" girls are really straight"/etc normal biphobia) is something that gets thrown at bi people a LOT (has been thrown at me personally a LOT), and used to justify a lot of shit treatment, exclusion and other bullshit, so I kind of resent it and at this point flinch because almost universally, someone who's going to draw that distinction/think it's a big deal is going to treat me badly.

"Coming out" isn't a one time only experience for me either; if I don't want to be closeted/ignored I have to do the same dance, except even more fun because it becomes "why are you bringing up your sex life right now?" because my relationship/lack thereof isn't a short-hand for my sexuality. In fact the only time I STOP having to come out is when people assume my best friend is my girlfriend/wife and it becomes a huge relief.

(This happens pretty persistently. Granted we then have to correct people just to make sure she doesn't miss a date or hookup she might otherwise enjoy because the boys think she's taken, but their image of ME is already cemented as "not straight" and I don't have to correct it and deal with the shit.)

So I dunno. I guess I have a fuck of a lot of sympathy with the tumblr poster, for most of the above reasons, and the "passing privilege" of bisexuals in het relationships is something I'm pretty sour about.

It's worth noting that I think I'm a bit younger than you, figured out I was bi when I was 15, and started getting the shit more or less immediately afterwards to the point where I seriously considered just telling everyone I was a lesbian because then they would shut up and accept it instead of telling me it was a phase (no, seriously, this is the situation I came out as a wee thing into - "well you didn't say you were GAY, so I'm concerned that this is just a phase and you're confusing strong friendship for sex-love"); I have been outright told that writing a story where a male bisexual and a female bisexual end up together is "harming queer people" and "queer erasure" because it "implies that all gay people will eventually end up with the opposite sex" and live in a country with equal marriage laws, so at this point being told that "passing" is a "privilege" makes my lip twist. I'd wear a damn pride-necklace/something, except that if I wear just the rainbow again the assumption is that I'm a lesbian, not bi, and almost none of the straight people I know have any clue what the bisexual flag/colours mean, so it's not helpful.

So my perspective may legitimately (and this is not a criticism, just a note) be coming from a very different place than that of someone who figured out their sexuality as a full adult, after they were happily married, etc.

[kate_nepveu]

Thank you for the explanation--you don't owe it to me, but I appreciate hearing where you're coming from, and I found it helpful and thought-provoking.

[recessional]

Np. And on reflection, I'm sorry for the level of profanity. -.-

And, on reflection and it bears saying, I might feel differently if I didn't live in a nation with equal marriage.

[kate_nepveu]

Pfft. No need to apologize.

And yeah. The tide, it is turning more swiftly than I expected in the US, but I am still very anxious about the legal landscape.

[storme]

My experience mirrors yours massively except I ended up married -- well, haha, civilly partnered, although converting that to a marriage is expected to become possible here soon -- to a woman. But for the 9 years before I met her, I was in a long-term straight relationship and boy-howdy did I get some side-eyes for explaining that I was *also* into women and oh god did the gay community deal out a lot of shit at me for being with a man how dare I. At university before that I was informed that I was not allowed to be LGBT rep for my campus because I had a boyfriend at the time. I always *hated* being accused of having passing privilege but coming out was this wall of WE DON'T TAKE YOUR SEXUALITY SERIOUSLY from both sides. So, yes, I am right there with you on all of this, and you have my sympathies.

(Nowadays I spend a lot of time carefully explaining that hey actually I still like men, and that it doesn't matter that I never intend to be with anyone except my wife ever again, my actual sexual identity STILL MATTERS and no stating it to folks is not a come-on. I have a massive and very-visible-to-people-who-know-me-at-all crush on a male celebrity and that's turned out to be more useful than I'd have thought for clarifying my identity to others. But yes, it is still a huge relief to be starting from the lesbian end of the spectrum as an assumption, instead of the other end.)

[storme]

Also, thinking this over (and at a big tangent), I think what really gets me enraged about biphobia generally is this bizarre underlying assumption that just because I am okay with my lovers being of any gender, I somehow get a CHOICE about the gender of the person I fall in love with. Like I could have gone, no, I don't want to fall in love with this woman, let me find a man instead so I can pass for straight. Or, no, I don't feel visible queer enough, this time I'm gonna find me a girl to love. Love doesn't work that way for anyone, surely?

[canyonwalker.livejournal.com]

I sympathize for you on the criticism you get for being bi as opposed to lesbian. It really saddens me to hear how much flak you get from people who, like you, are also sexually "other". Not that bi, lesbian, gay, etc. are at all the same thing, but one trait they do share is being other in society. You'd think that people with similar life experience would pull together in the same direction on issues of tolerance and acceptance. Seeing them prey on one another is as sad as seeing racial minorities conflict with one another because the racial power structure has got them thinking they're competing for resources in a zero-sum game. Sad.

[skygiants]

I don't know, man! This discussion is difficult because it feels like -- well, I feel like the term privilege, while not necessarily inaccurate, is kind of unhelpful here, because it implies a direct kind of ladder with people on different rungs, and everything about sexuality is so much more complicated than that. And, like, the discussions I've seen (like so many discussions) want to reduce it down to binaries: "lesbian women have it harder than bi women, full stop! stop complaining, bisexuals!" or "monosexuals are always really mean to bisexuals! monosexual privilege!" and ... it's hard in different ways? It can be hard in different ways! We don't have to quantify it!

But I mean, who am I to say, it's only really very recently that I've started having to ... come out more actively ...? myself, and I am way more awkward at it than I thought I would be. I always pictured myself as very cool and blase about it! Surprise: I am not cool and blase.

[kate_nepveu]

Surprise! Me too, and it is hard for me to think of ways in which coming out and talking could have _fewer_ significant consequences for me. I am about as safe as you can be in this situation, and I still had to psych myself up to do it.

And yeah, I definitely was not wanting to imply ladders! My general understanding of privilege isn't a ladder, though, it's contextual, and to me, I find it useful to thinking of passing as heterosexual as a privilege: unearned, sourced in an oppressive system of thought, pervasive. Maybe that's where I disagree with the second poster [*], that I think privilege _is_ a symptom of hetero-normativity.

[*] I saw that post in passing, and am deliberately not bringing this discussion there, even if I understood Tumblr, because I don't know the context in which was made.

[hebethen]

That person acts like white-passing POC don't experience erasure and invisibility. Newsflash: that's why "passing privilege" is a separate term. You get conditional benefits as long as you shut up and play along. Other people don't even have the option of shutting up and playing along.

[kate_nepveu]

With the caveat that I only saw that post in passing and I don't know the context, yes, I agree.

[nancylebov]

This is tangential, but a genderqueer person who receives a lot of confidences says gender roles are so restrictive that everyone is in the closet to varying extents.

[mmcirvin]

Yeah... When it comes to sexual attraction I'm maybe like a Kinsey 1; I'm overwhelmingly attracted to women, but I'd be lying if I said I never felt any attraction to men at all. Also, in my life I've had this series of nonsexual male-male friendships that sometimes have had near-romantic levels of emotional intensity. But at the same time I think that if I adopted the "bi" label I'd be a bit of a poser.

But I also grew up as a pro-gay-rights liberal feminist in a very homophobic age, and it made me wary of making a big deal of my straightness and doing the sort of performative "who would I bang" thing with other guys, which combined with general shyness led to people being really puzzled about me. Often I was effectively passing as asexual, and a lot of people undoubtedly assumed I was just a deeply closeted gay dude.

But my being married to a woman now leads to people making a different set of assumptions. Maybe more accurate ones on the whole, but nothing simple is 100% accurate.

[mmcirvin]

...And that is sounding a lot like the stuff I wrote in a discussion on racial passing and white privilege on this blog a while ago.

Only there have been new developments: as I partially suspected, DNA testing of my sister indicates that the supposed Native American ancestry in my family is probably bogus. Those "Cherokees"? Probably actually Jews.

[kate_nepveu]

Oh goodness. That's depressing yet unsurprising in many ways.

[mmcirvin]

There's all different kinds of passing, evidently.

[kate_nepveu]

And erasure.

[kate_nepveu]

Thanks for the link--food for thought.

[rosefox]

That sounds right to me. I know a whole lot of FAAB folks who have said things to me along the lines of "Well, I don't feel entirely comfortable being a woman, but I don't think I'm trans..." and I'm pretty sure what they're feeling is internalized misogyny, but then I wonder (more or less constantly) how much of my own trans-ness has the same origin.

[choirwoman]

I'd had enough experience with both men and women before I married a man to be sure I was bi. Usually in normal conversation the subject doesn't come up, and I'm quite comfortable with people assuming I'm straight unless the subject does come up; and when it does I'm outspoken. I used to get a lot of flak from the lesbian community ("it's just a phase, you'll get over it") and from generally clueless people ("how can you be bi if you don't have a man and a woman?") but not so much now I've moved out of those circles. Well, not of clueless people, but it's true that being married is a shield against that particular cluelessness.

I find I'm constitutionally monogamous; if I'm ever widowed, and I do feel like another relationship, it's as likely (perhaps slightly more likely) to be with a woman as with a man, but as it is I don't feel I'm missing anything. (Unfortunately, both of my female friends who I would consider first in that case are absolutely straight, and one is absolutely monogamously married.)

I should perhaps be more of an activist, but I don't have the spoons for that, sorry.

[kate_nepveu]

Don't apologize--capacity and ability to cope with activism are definitely a thing that everyone needs to determine for themselves.

[lavendertook]

I agree with you.

Biphobia ia real. But so is heterosexual privilege when you are in a heterosexual relationship.

It's an intersection. *

The oppression of one does not negate the privilege of the other, and vice versa.

Being able to visit your partner in the hospital, and getting them across the border to live with you, and the economic tax advantages are very real material and vital privileges that same-sex partners do not have in many places still--the laws are changing world-wide, but the blocks from gate keepers with unchanged attitudes move more slowly, and we have a ways to go.

Again, this does not negate the real discrimination against bisexuals in the straight and gay and lesbian communities, but if a bisexual is in a heterosexual relationship, she definitely has tangible heterosexual privilege that bisexuals in same sex relationships and who are single do not have.

*Another edit to specify that the intersection here is between sexual identity (which encompasses desire, behavior, and expression, each of which can interact complicatedly) and relationship status.

And if we're to get into gender identity, the first thing I would point out is that heterosexual privilege is greatly magnified for men due to sexism, and the privileges and oppressions that accrue to various femme and butch identities in relationship to each other is very complicated.

[kate_nepveu]

Always more complicated! (I don't self-identify on the butch-femme axis, though I probably read as fairly femme by virtue of my face?, but it's something that comes up, though not quite in those terms, in discrimination law, and just the little bit of it there, yeah, complicated.)

[lavendertook]

I don't think I know anything about femme-butch usage, or related terms, in discrimination law. If you ever felt like sharing here what you have seen sometime, I would be most interested.

[kate_nepveu]

Under US employment law, discriminating against someone because they don't conform to gender stereotypes constitutes gender discrimination; the leading case involved a woman who was denied promotion and told to "walk more femininely, talk more femininely, dress more femininely, wear make-up, have her hair styled, and wear jewelry." (cite)

[lavendertook]

Ah right. Thank you!

[mariness]

(kinda incoherently raging.)

No.

[kate_nepveu]

If you eventually have the energy to say which bit you're raging at, I'd like to know, but if you don't, that's okay too!

[qian]

I feel like what skygiants said about its not being a ladder with rungs and what hebethen said about passing privilege being about having the chance to play along are right. If you are bi in a m/f relationship then you absolutely have the benefit of many privileges that people who are in same-sex relationships don't. You get to shut up and have a legal marriage with your partner in the religious institution of your choice, and have that be openly, joyously celebrated by your family, and plan to have kids without your asshole moms and aunts saying that it's selfish for a queer couple to want to raise kids.

There's stuff that sucks as well, of course. But it's not like erasure and privilege can't co-exist. They totally do, that is the whole point, surely.

[kate_nepveu]

Right, they're part of the same system.